Re: Primary/secondary object systems

On Monday, April 5, 2004, at 02:56 AM, Paul Bennett wrote:
[snip]
> Yes. As I understand it, ordinarily, languages treat the Object of a
> transitive sentence the same as the Direct Object of a ditransitive
> sentence, and use another mechanism (often prepositions or oblique cases)
> for the Indirect Object.
>
> I see Bill
> S V   (D)O
>
> I give the ball to Bill
> S V        DO      IO
>
> I write the letter with the pen
> S V         DO              IO
I fail to see how "with a pen" is the Indirect Object. I have always
understood that the IO is:
- (normally) the first of the two objects of a ditransitive verb;
- may be replaced by a phrase beginning with 'to' or 'for' after the DO;
- is expressed by the dative case in those languages that show case
distinction.

On all three counts "Bill" is fine as IO, thus:
- I give Bill the ball
- I give the ball to Bill
- pilam Gulielmo do
   ACC.  DAT.

Indeed, the verb 'write' can have an indirect object in English, e.g.
I wrote Bill a letter
I wrote a letter to Bill

'with a pen' is surely a prepositional phrase, expressing what some
languages denote by the _instrumental_ case. Latin simply uses the
ablative, e.g.
stilo epitulam scribo
ABL.   ACC.

>
> Dechticaetiative languages (which AFAIK only exist in Africa) to this
>
> I see Bill
> S V   (P)O
>
> I give(-to) Bill with the ball
> S V         PO            SO
>
> I write(-with) the pen THUS the letter
> S V                PO           SO
>
> THUS in caps because I can't think of an equivalent English preposition.
Ah, but here you're using the terms 'primary object' & 'secondary object'
which are surely rather different concepts to the direct object & indirect
objects of non-dechticaetiative languages

Rather interestingly Latin seem to show examples of both types of
construction with certain verbs, cf.

pilam 	  Gaio        donauit
ball+ACC  Gauius+DAT  offered+PERF+3rdS = he offered Gaius the ball
DO         IO         verb
_or_
pila      Gaium       donauit
ball-ABL  Gauius-ACC  offered-PERF-3rdS = he offered Gaius the ball
SO         PO         verb

murum     urbi      circumdederunt
wall-ACC  city-DAT  surrounded+PERF+3rdPl = they surrounded the city with
a wall
DO          IO      verb
_or_
muro      urbem     circumdederunt
wall+ABL  city+ACC  surrounded+PERF+3rdPl = they surrounded the city with
a wall
SO        PO        verb

(The ablative are used here instrumentally)
Interestingly, allows only the IO/DO construction for "offered" and only
the 'non-dative' construction for "surrounded", in these cases being
'stricter' than Latin.

Darn natlangs - not sticking to the neat categories of theorists!   ;-)

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com    (home)
raymond.brown@kingston-college.ac.uk   (work)
===============================================
"A mind which thinks at its own expense will always
interfere with language."         J.G. Hamann, 1760