Re: Imperatives... does this work?

In a message dated 7/24/02 4:31:54 AM, nihilsum@HOTMAIL.COM writes:

Your idea makes perfect sense! I'm no expert, but according to _Hungarian
Verbs and Essentials of Grammar_, H. does the same thing. It calls the form
"conjunctive-imperative", and uses it in the ways you've mentioned, as well
as for less direct verbs such as "want" and "suggest". For example, "azt
akarom, hogy vedd fel", which is something like, "that I want, how (that) you
put on." The book also says, "It is also used to ask for instructions,
suggestions, etc. (i.e. it can be used in the meaning expressed in English by
Shall I?, Shall we?)." It gives the examples "Shall I have my hair cut?" and
"Where shall we put it down?"
I use the same construction in Eloshtan, and call it "subjunctive." As for
explaining, I describe the uses of the subjunctive, and include indirect and
direct commands among them. Unlike Hungarian, Eloshtan also uses this mood
for verbs with the same subject as the main verb, and the subject marking is
repeated, e.g. "I want to eat" would be expressed as, "I want that I eat"
("kerem kamonom").

>Wondering if this makes sense:
>
>When indirectly quoting imperatives in Rhean, I've decided to keep the
>imperative form.
>
>Imperative:
>Kofin migekyurye.
>coffee-ACC get-go-2s.IMP
>Go get coffee.
>
>Direct quote of imperative:
>Zduaim o "kofin migekyurye"
>say-1s.PAST (obj) "coffee-ACC get-go-2s.IMP"
>
>HERE -- Indirect quote of imperative:
>Zduaim du kofin migekyurye
>say-1s.PAST that coffee-ACC get-go-2s.IMP
>
>So the indirect one, expressed in English by "I said to go get coffee"
>is in
>Rhean "I said that [(imperative) go get coffee]".
>
>Now HERE's a trickier one... and this one I will have to change if someone
>can show me that this doesn't work:
>
>Du kofin migekyuryem c'u zduait?
>that coffee get-go-1s.IMP (qu.) say-2s.PAST?
>Did you say to go get coffee?
>
>In other words, "Did you say go-get[first person singular imperative]
>coffee?"
>
>Du Lak'udu yuryes' tant radaim.
>That Hell-DAT go-3s.IMP him-DAT tell-1s.PAST
>I told him to go to Hell.
>
>vs
>
>"Lak'udu yurye!" tant radaim.
>"Hell-DAT go-2s.IMP" him-DAT tell-1s.PAST
>I told him, "go to Hell!"
>
>Now, on its own the third person imperative "Lak'udu yuryes'" would mean
>"let him go to Hell," or "may he go to Hell"... The direct quote shows
>the
>speaker's exact words when saying "(you) Go to Hell!" and thus the
>imperative is in the third person. But the indirect quote uses the third
>person imperative.
>Does this make sense? Are there any other languages that do it this way?
>Should I ditch this approach?
>Because it seems to me that this sentence:
>Du Lak'udu yurye tant radaim.
>That Hell-DAT go-2s.IMP him-DAT tell-1s.PAST
>
>... imples the meaning "I told him that YOU (the listener) can go to Hell."
>In other words, in his (the third person referred to) presence, I said
>"Lak'udu yuryes'" (3s-IMP), referring at that time, in third person, to
>you.
>
>Du Lak'udu yuryes' tant radaim.
>That Hell-DAT go-3s.IMP him-DAT tell-1s.PAST
>I told him to go to Hell.
>(I told him that he may go to Hell? -- perhaps is a better way of looking
>at
>it)
>
>And so... with the first person singular imperative (which is seldom used
>on
>its own, although first person plural imperative is quite common):
>
>Du kofin migekyurye mu zduaim.
>That coffee-ACC get-go-2s.IMP not say-1s.PAST
>I didn't say to go get coffee.
>
>the listener replies:
>
>Ak' du kofin MU migekuryem mu zduait.
>But that coffee-ACC NOT get-go-1s.IMP not say-2s.PAST
>But you didn't say NOT to go get coffee.
>
>...using the FIRST person imperative.
>
>It's difficult to express the concept. I don't know the proper terminology.
>But it really seems like the way to put it together. So the questions are:
>is there another language that does this? Is this grammatically
>sound/unsound? Does it make any bloody sense? And how could this be better
>explained, if I were ever to put together a presentable Rhean grammar?
>
>NS

Josh Roth
http://members.aol.com/fuscian/eloshtan.html

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