Re: Nasal semivowels/fricatives?

In a message dated 2/15/2000 8:46:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Christophe.Grandsire@BDE.ESPCI.FR writes:

<< I know that classification, and I know that some phoneticians classify
 nasals as stops. Personnally I don't like this classification, as nasals
 certainly don't behave like stops (depending on the languages, they often
 behave like fricatives, and even approximants!). Nasals are different from
 stops as there is no blockage in the air flow, unlike stops (yes, there is
 blockage in the oral cavity, but the nasal cavity is wide open and stays
 wide open without discontinuity, just like a fricative or an approximant).>>
    Total agreement here.  Phonetically "nasal stop" is redundant, since the
definition of "nasal" implies "stoppage of the oral air-stream, with lowering
of the velum which allows release of the air-stream  thru the nose".  The
term "stop"implies
stoppage of the oral air-stream, raised velum, then release of the blocked
air-stream thru the mouth.  (These are my words, not direct quotes, so carps
and cavils are OK).  Within the _phonological/phonemic_ system of a given
language, it might be convenient to class nasal with stops, or with
resonants, or vowels, whatever, depending on how they pattern in that
specific lang. -- but such analyses may or may not depend on the _phonetics_.

>> What I call "nasalized stops" are real stops, that's to say the airstream
passes a
 little and then is blocked in both the oral and nasal cavities. >>
As you describe it, it sounds like what I would call a "prenasalized stop"
which, in a given language, could function as a unit.  Fijian, best described
as a CVCV type lang., has them-- hypothetical /saba/ pronounced [samba]
syllabified sa+mba; a word like /basa/ [mbasa] mba+sa is also possible--
whereas Engl. and probably French would put the syllable break in "samba"
between the m and b, and "mbasa"is not a possible Engl. or Fr. word. (PS my
Kash lang. has prenas. stops too, but only in medial position.)
Technically (for me at least) a "nasalized" stop would occur when one
(inadvertantly?) nasalizes all one's speech -- talking thru your nose -- or
just specific words with nasals in them where the nasalization carries over.
My guess would be that Fr. "angelique" is all nasalized up to the -que /k/;
how about "angeliquement"--
totally nasalized? even the /k/ a little bit?

>>Of course they are not the easiest sounds of Tj'a-ts'a~n, but I'm pretty
 sure of my description, and I can hear them (and they are different from
 prenasalized stops, as the nasalization stays until the end of the
 consonnant).>>
    Hmmm.  That I'd have to hear.  It could well be that as a French speaker
you are much more aware of what's going on, given the role of nasalization in
French (which I read but seldom speak, after being told I sounded "comme une
vache espagnole").

 >>Well, of course, I may be wrong in my description, but I'm pretty sure I'm
 not. And anyway, Tj'a-ts'a~n is supposedly spoken by aliens, so they may be
 different enough so that they can produce sounds we can't (but then, I
 would like to know what I produce myself, because now I'm worrying about my
 own humanity :) ).
  >>
I don't think you need to worry! :)