Re: /S/ in old and middle High German; was: Vikings

Tristan Mc Leay wrote:
> John Cowan wrote:
>
>> Sally Caves scripsit:
>>
>>
>>>> --hence the Hungarian values of _s_ and _sz_!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm not familiar with the Hungarian values.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> |s| is /S/, whereas |sz| is /s/.  Similarly, |z| is /ts/ and |zs| is /Z/.
(Responding to John)

|z| is /ts/ in Hungarian? I could have sworn that I've read it's just /z/.
But it would make more sense, since the Hung. orthography is so German-
inspired.



----

(And to Tristan)

 > Don't worry Sally, Australians aren't either, but we still manage to get
 > at least the _sz_ in 'Mt Kosciuszko' right, even if the rest is
 > appaling;


How would knowing the Hungarian values of |s| and |sz| help Australians
to pronounce a Polish name? The conventions are exactly opposite -
Hungarian has |sz|=/s/ and |s|=/S/. Polish has |s|=/s/ and |sz|=/S/.

Then of course there's |ś| (the |s| in |si| too) which is /s\/, and the
distinction between |ś| and |sz| is essential if you don't want to
go around saying things like "pass the salt, piglet" only to follow it
up with the not even insulting "piglet very much".
|proszę| /prOSE/ is "please" (also said on receiving what you asked for)
and |prosie| (IIRC) /prOs\E/ is "piglet".

 > it's pronounced /kOziOskOu/. If I remember the pronounciation
> a Pole told me correctly, the real Polish pronunciation is probably
> australianised better as /kOtSuskOu/ (at least, that's how I remember
> it, but I don't dare say it's the Polish pronunciation because I'll have
> my head bitten off).
I know the feeling. I'd hazard /kOs\ts\uSkO/, though, for |Kościuszko|.
Yep, that's really a /s\ts\/ in there...! It seems to me that there's
a syllable boundary after the first /s\/, which at least makes it
slightly pronounceable.

I'd feel a lot more uncertain offering a Australian pronunciation!


s.
--
To be sure, to be sure