Re: /p/ versus devoiced b?

On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, E-Ching Ng wrote:

> Imperative wrote:
> >Why is it that /p/ and devoiced /b/ sound slightly different? I recall
> >reading somewhere that it has something to do with fortis and lenis
> >voiceless (or I could be mistaken?)
>
> We should ask Yoon Ha.  Korean has a three way contrast between voiceless
> stops: aspirated, unaspirated, and fortis.  Is the devoiced /b/ the fortis
> stop?
Let's see...that would be (in transliteration)
p' t' ch' k' (aspirated, and no, the transliteration isn't my fault)
p  t  ch  k  (unaspirated)
  (note: the Korean gov't changed these to b, d, ch, g before vowels)
pp tt ?   kk (fortis or "tensed")

Devoiced /b/ the fortis stop?  Not s'far as I can tell.  'Course, I'm
fuzzy on how a devoiced /b/ would be different from /p/.  I do know that
[b], [d], [g] seem to be allophonic or becoming allophonic with the
unaspirated stops when they occur before vowels.

> The three Korean grad students in my phonetics class told us that fortis
> stops were produced by stiffening the vocalis folds so that there was no
> vibration in the larynx.  This made things as clear as mud to me.  There
> were slightly audible differences between individual unaspirated and fortis
> pairs which they produced for us, but I could never generalise the
> difference and recognise what made them different.
<blink>  It's crystal-clear to me, but then Korean was my first
language.  I do know that the one that seems to give English-speakers the
most trouble as far as distinguishing them from hearing are "ss" (which
Hebrew-speakers seem to hear as [ts]? though the tongue tip doesn't
actually touch anything, it just comes really close; and for my money,
"ss" is closest to English [s]) and "s".  Their explanation is probably
better than mine, which up to now has been, "listen to what I say and
then try to make the sound tense in your throat."  Since "ss" is a
fricative it doesn't seem to belong in the same category anyway (though
its representation in the Korean alphabet is parallel).  :-/

YHL