Re: /p/ versus devoiced b?

Yoon Ha Lee wrote:
>If anything, I'd say that the aspirated series sounds slightly longer
>than the other two series, and the tensed consonants don't do anything
>like "pen knife."  Consonants can get tensified in certain contexts but
>that's one of the many sound change things--mutations?--that happens in
>Korean and doesn't affect things like, oh, ppajuda ("to fall out of") vs.
>pajuda ("to see through," as in "I'll see you through this disaster") vs.
>(I *think*) p'ajuda ("to be able to sell to").>
When you posted the Korean alphabet URL a while back, I went there, and also
had difficulty hearing whatever was going on with the tense consonants.
That's the extent of my knowledge of Korean....but the geminate consonants
I'm familiar with might offer a clue.  Buginese of Indonesia, and its
relatives, have them, though only between vowels.  So the /pp/ in "appa" is
twice as long as /p/ in "apa"; the /bb/ in "abba" (which ideally sounds as
in Engl. "rub_bottom") twice as long as in "aba". Continuants and nasals
simply hold the tongue position longer; I suspect there's more muscular
tension in the tongue.  As to the stops, in both cases there can be
simultaneous closure of the glottis, something like [?p:] [?(p)b] (hard to
indicate in email!-- obviously with closed glottis and lips, there can't be
voicing, which only begins when the glottis is opened).  A lot of speakers
pronounce their geminates as a cluster, /?/ plus stop [a?pa], [a?ba].  (We
do this in Engl. too:  "top point" [t_hap:_hojnt] or  (fast)
[t_ha?p_hojnt]).
Since ejectives also involve simultaneous glottal closure but then: raised
glottis to increase pressure/stop release/glottis release-- (put a finger on
your Adam's apple and you'll feel the glottis move up).-- PERHAPS in Korean
you have closure at both the glottis and the point of articulation, but
simultaneous release of both, with little or no raising of the glottis, so
less pressure in the mouth (as opposed to a true ejective). Or it could be,
the glottis rises but not very much-- less pressure, so less of a pop when
the articulator is released.   But  I'd also suspect that the lips/tongue
have increased muscular tension.  When you pronounce Kor. /pp/ are your lips
more compressed than for plain /p/?  Or /tt/-- tongue a little tighter
against the alv.? For /ss/ compare Engl. "missy" vs. "Miss_Susie"-- I at
least feel definite tension in the s of Miss.

Just some thoughts..........

There's a book by Peter Ladefoged that's often mentioned here-- it describes
absolutely every sound in almost every language.  Might be worth a look.
Sorry I forget the title, but your Phonetics teacher ought to know it!
Roger.