Re: Question about Latin E and Slavic yat'
|From:||Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren_jan@...>|
|Date:||Monday, November 1, 2004, 9:36|
--- Ray Brown skrzypszy:
> > Until now, I have been assuming that long E and long I
> > diphthongised to [iE], thus giving SE: > *sje > sze.
> Long-i did not diphthongize in any variety of Romance.
I've been looking at Romanian, and what I found is that T, D, S
becames /ts/, /z/ and /S/ before short E and long I. If the process
is the same as in Slavic (where the same thing happens), then
something like /ti/ > /tii/ > /tji/ > /tsi/ must have been at work.
I would be lying if I said that I copied this development from
Romanian, but at least I was happy to find it confirmed there.
> Long-e (and short-i which in western Romance fell together with the
> old long-e) diphthongized when stressed in north Gaul, thus _se_
> became *sej --> *sEj --> sOj (spelled _soi_ in Old French).
While that is indeed true in all living Romance languages, in the
case of Wenedyk (and Slvanjec; my efforts have to a certain degree
been coordinated with Benct's) I have mapped short I and U to the
Slavic yers instead, which in my opinion is a reasonable (and for a
project like ours inevitable) thing to do. An admittedly weak
justification is the fact that the Slavo-Romance languages are
neither East nor West Romance, but constitute a separate subgroup in
> In all the romance langs, /O/ and /E/, which was the VL development
> of Classical short-o and short-e (VL did not have phonemic long &
> short vowels) became _rising diphthongs_ when in unblocked stressed
Except in Portugese, as far as I have understood.
> In unstressed syllables there was no diphthongization.
True, I forgot to mention that. That is also true in Wenedyk, by the
> > [E]. Now here's my question: when did this diphthongisation of
> > [E] take place in Romance?
> In the stressed unblocked syllables in VL.
Thanks. But my question was worded badly. By "when" I actually meant:
in which century, more or less?
> > And, how likely would it be that it did not happen in the Vulgar
> > Latin that would later develop into Wenedyk (and Slvanjec, for
> > that matter), but that instead [e] were diphthongised?
> Not likely IMO. There would have be strong influences from native
> langs of the area and also reasons why it was not subject to
> contact with the wider VL world of merchants & legionaries.
Ah, but those have already been taken care of! :)
> > The second problem is the mapping to the Common Slavic yat' (e^].
> > For some reason, I have always mapped Latin long E and OE to the
> > yat', and short E and AE to the Slavic E. Intuititively, that
> > works well in general, but I'm having some doubts about
> > plausibility.
> So am I - I would have thought it would have been the other way
> round - but I'm no Slavic expert.
Neither am I. As it turned out, nobody knows precisely what the
Ancient Slavic yat' sounded like. In West Slavic is was probably
something like [&:], possibly also [j&:]. But then, Common Slavic is
also a flexible thing, encompassing quite a lot of centuries. The
fact that in Czech it becomes [i], while in Polish it becomes [E]
([a] before a hard dental consonant) isn't particularly helpful
> The Romance lang that actually did come under Slavic influence is
> Romanian. Maybe you need to track down more specific info on the
> development of Romanian.
I must admit that I have neglected Romanian far too much in the
beginning, focussing on Classical Latin and (Western) Romance
instead. I've worked quite a lot with Peter Boyd-Bowman's "From Latin
to Romance in Sound Charts", which is a really nice work, but
unfortunately deals only with the "big four" (French, Spanish,
Changing 3000 words and a reasonably-sized corpus is not an easy
task. I would undoubtedly have done a few things differently if I had
known everything I know now from the beginning. At this stage,
however, I'll rather limit myself to changing those things which are
impossible or utterly implausible.
Thank you for replying.
"If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed
room with a mosquito."
Relay 10: http://steen.free.fr/relay10/
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