Re: Optimum number of symbols

Ray Brown wrote: (re VERY interesting discussion of Chinese, with snips))
...It's perfectly possible to analyze and,
>indeed, not difficult to analyze Mandarin beyond the syllable; and altho
>much of this analysis can be done in terms of phonemes, there are important
>areas of controversy.  It doesn't lend itself to neat "phonematization" in
>the way that some natlangs do.
>
>The points of controversy are:
>1. The status of the palatal series ( Pinyin {q}, {j}, {x}; X-SAMPA [tCh],
>[tC], [C])
>These consonants occur only before [i], [y] and diphthongs and triphthongs
>beginning with semivovalic [i] and [y].
>Now the retroflex series ({ch}, {zh} and {sh}; [ts`h], [ts`], [s`]) occur
>before all vowels _except_ [i] and [y]*.  Fine, then we say the palatals
>are allophones of the retroflex consonants before [i] and [y]?
>Well, no - thre is a slight complication  :)
>Mandarin has two other similar series which may also occur before all
>vowels except [i] and [y], namely:
>Dental: {c}, {z}, {s}; [tsh], [ts], [s]
> Velar: {k}, {g}, {x}; [kh], [k], [x]
>3.  What is the status of [j] and [w]?  Most Romanizations, including
>Pinyin, certainly suggest they have phonemic status; and, indeed, some
>phonologists think this is correct.  Others, however, regard them as not
>being phonemically distinctive, being merely the onset of syllables
>beginning with [i], [y] (in the case of [j]) or [u] (in the case of [w]) .
>(Or is [y] an allophone /u/ after initial [j]?)
Presumably much of this results from numerous mergers along the way?

Reminiscent of a system I played around with some time back, which would
have had only one "phonemic" vowel, /@/.  The many consonants could be
plain, labialized or palatalized.  /Cw@/ = [Cu], /Cj@/= [Ci]; IIRC /@/ > [a]
or [@] after Plain C depending on the consonant.

Some of this survives in the nascent Gwr language; except it has 9 vowels,
most of which (except /r/ [3^]) can also diphthongize, falling with /j, 1,
q/, and rising with /j, w/-- but certain combinations > long vowel, e.g.
/wu/, /uw/, /ij/, /ji/, /a1/, /E1/, /O1/  et al.

So the question is whether the abugida will distinguish |pji| and |pij|,
both [pi:]....
Technically, I think it's also possible to have /jij/, which is another
problem......

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