Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Re: initial mutation or trigger? Re: re Mutations

From:Elliott Lash <erelion12@...>
Date:Thursday, October 14, 2004, 22:10
On Fri, Oct 15, 2004 at 12:13:05AM +0200, Rodlox
wrote:
> > Explain what you now understand a trigger to be. > > an isolate either at the beginning of a sentance
(common), or just before
> the word...and the trigger can change the meaning of
a sentance by simply
> being one letter different.
Marcos replied: Well, it seems to me that what we were talking about was pretty much the opposite of that. The meaning doesn't change, but one of the sounds does, do to the phonetic environment. I mean, I don't know Welsh, but the initial consonant mutation seems fundamentally similar to the final consonant mutation in the English indefinite article: the final consonant is normally zero, but becomes [n] before a vowel. -Marcos My reply: Eh...vaguely. But actually often times mutation in Welsh does change the meaning of the sentence or word. For the Welsh examples: Prynodd Huw ~ Huw (a) brynodd Here, the "a" is a fronting particle that tells us that the object or subject of the sentence has been fronted. It is almost always omitted in speech. What is left is the mutation (prynodd > brynodd) that marks essentially the same thing, but has become the sole marker. But after the particle 'y' there is no mutation, so: Ddoe y prynodd Huw gar. Here, the "y" is a particle that marks some other portion of the sentence as fronted. This can be an adverbial phrase, etc. Since this particle is also usually omitted, the sole difference in mutation is what shows which has been fronted.... And...actually, I think I just figured out Rodlox's confusion. Trigger languages tend to have an element which is marked as the "focus", but its actual role in the sentence (subject, object, instrument, etc) is marked on the verb. Since the Welsh "brynodd" in this case is used when the fronted (focused) element is the subject or the object, and the form "prynodd" is in this case used to show that some other type of thing is fronted, a trigger like situation seems to have occured. There is no trigger particle (but "A" and "Y" might have been viewed as such, at least by Rodlox), and the verb changes according to the fronted element. Anyways, back to my main point. Welsh mutation also marks direct objects of finite verbs (a grammatical not phonetic category). It also marks the distinction between "ei" "his" and "ei" "her": ei dad "his father" ei thad "her father" It marks the the interogative form of some tenses of the verb: DDylai hi fynd? "Should she go?" (verb: dylai "she should go") And so forth. So, I think that most of the instances of mutation in Welsh are actually more grammaticalized phenomena, than phonetic. Elliott __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Reply

Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>