Re: [T] -> [f] (was: Chinese Dialect Question)

On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 03:05 , Stone Gordonssen wrote:

>>>> The change also occurred in pre-Latin
>>>
>>> Oh, sure, but that's a historical change.  Seeing it happening
>>> "in real time" in one's own language is different.
>>
>> How so?  Doesn't the fact that it can be seen to be happening
>> confirm what was suspected about the situation in the past?
>> Doesn't one give greater credence to the other?
>
> Otherway round, I'd quess:
<Sigh> I meant _reciprocally_. I did not think think _one_ and _other_
would be interpreted as 'the former'....'the latter' (or 'the latter....
the former').

> just because it happened in a language in the
> past doesn't mean that one is sitting about with bated breath awaiting it
> to
> happen in one's own language in present day.
Nor did I suggest any such inanity.

I am merely making the observation that witnessing a sound change
actually happening helps, as Tristan said, understanding why a similar
change had take place in the past.  Here a _present_ event is confirming
speculation about a _past_ event.

I, like Tristan, too find it difficult to appreciate why [kj] should shift
to [tS] (or some similar sound) because I have had no direct experience of
this; yet I know this sound change is well attested in the past
development of many, quite unrelated languages.  I was merely making the
observation
that if I came across some variety of English where 'keep' was being
pronounced as 'cheap' I would not find it difficult to imagine the change
happening.  Here a posited _past event_ has prepared me to accept a
_present_ event.

As for the stupid remark about sitting around with bated breath awaiting
a change to happen, it is plainly stupid for two reasons (at least):
1. The sound change under discussion, i.e. [T] --> [f] is attested in
English at least, to my knowledge, as early as the 19th century. I may be
old, but I'm not that old!  How can I possibly be supposed to have been
sitting around waiting with bated breath for something that had already
been going on well before I was born?  Duh!
2. The number of sound changes that have actually occurred in languages
are very large. If I were to sit around waiting with bated breath for
these changes, I don't suppose I would've made it to the 21st century. No
- sorry to disappoint you; I am not waiting with bated breath for 'keep'
to change into 'cheap' (if it ever does) still less for 'knee' to become
'ah'!

Ray
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