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Re: Irrealis mood and non-finite verbs

From:R A Brown <ray@...>
Date:Tuesday, April 1, 2008, 9:39
Mark J. Reed wrote:
> My understanding is that the optative is restricted to non-factual > conditions being wished for/desired/etc,
...and then only when these refer to future time. But your statement needs another qualification: the compulsory use of the optative is restricted to non-factual conditions and wishes for the future. The optative had other _optional_ uses. It was optionally used in place of the subjunctive in subordinate clauses if the main verb was past, and it was also optionally used in place of the indicative in indirect/ reported speech if the main verb was past. But the optional use was not at like it is, as I understand, in modern Spanish where the use of the indicative or subjunctive gives a different nuance. There is no indication that this was so in the ancient language. it seems to have been a matter of dialect or idiolect preference; for example, Xenophon used the optative whenever he could. Thucydides avoided it as far as possible.
> while the subjunctive is for > all the other things we're lumping into "irrealis" here.
Sometimes the indicative was used with "irrealis" meaning, for example in present or past wishes.
>But I > haven't ever studied Greek, so I could be completely wrong.
No, not completely wrong. But some qualifications are needed. Indeed, even what I've added above does not give the complete picture, which would require rather more than a simple email. I have on my shelves a book of 464 pages entitled "Syntax of the Moods and Tenses of the Greek Verb." It's a tall order to summarize that adequately in an email :-) But if we assume that 'realis' and 'irrealis' are the ends, poles, or whatever, of the modal continuum, then it is certainly true to say that the optative tends more toward the irrealis end than the subjunctive. as Goodwin writes in his "Greek Grammar": "The optative in many of its uses is a vaguer and less distinct form of expression than the subjunctive, indicative or imperative....." Personally, while the realis ~ irrealis distinction may be useful in the description of some languages, I do not think it is very helpful in describing either Latin or Classical Greek where the use of the various moods is very much grammaticalized. Indeed, I think trying to posit some simple overall realis ~ irrealis distinction in these languages is unhelpful and can be misleading. The thing to do in learning these languages is to learn which mood is required in various different grammatical construction. -- Ray ================================== ================================== Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora. [William of Ockham]


Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>