poly-rhotics (was: Chinese Dialect Question)
|From:||Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>|
|Date:||Friday, October 3, 2003, 5:15|
On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 06:29 , John Cowan wrote:
> Garth Wallace scripsit:
>> JS Bangs wrote:
>>> Mark J. Reed sikyal:
>>> Furthermore, most languages have exactly one rhotic
>> Is this a universal, or are there some languages with more than one?
Nope to first question - yep to the second.
> Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese for sure.
Not only Brazilian Portuguese either - the Portuguese of Portugal also has
two, as does Catalan also.
Welsh also has two: |r| which is trilled (usually apically, in some parts
of the north, uvularly) and |rh| which is the aspirated/voiceless counter-
part of the former.
On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 06:12 , James Campbell wrote:
> Well, Spanish for one distinguishes between |r| and |rr| (supply your own
> phonology as appropriate). But IIUC the place of articulation is the same.
Yeah - but the _manner_ of articulation is different. |r| is flapped, |rr|
is trilled (initial |r| is pronounced like |rr|). The same is true of
Catalan and was once so of Portuguese; but the later now pronounce |rr| as
> A conlang that differentiated between 3 Rs would be kinda cool...
You mean like Scots Gaelic?
(SAMPA) /r/, /r_e/ (i.e. velarized-r, real IPA puts a tilde through it),
and /r'/ (palatalized).
I believe some Irish Gaelic dialects have four: /r/, /r_e/, /r'/, /r_e'/.
On Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 06:42 , Roger Mills wrote:
> Some Dravidian languages (and I think Proto Drav.) have 3, dental,
> and retroflex.
Don't know about Proto Drav, but certainly some (most?) modern Dravidian
langs have these three.
> Malayo-Polynesian languages allow the reconstruction of at least two, one
> symbolized *r (presumably dental/alv.), the other *R (presumably a velar)
Yes, having two rhotics is not so uncommon. Three is less common, but
well enough attested. If I've remembered correctly about Irish Gaelic,
have at least one example of four, and I don't imagine it would be unique.
So if a conlang is to "out-cool" natlangs on rhotics, it's got to have
a paltry three.
You could have, I guess, at least eight :-)
dental alveolar retroflex uvular
voiced 1 2 3 4
unvoiced/ 5 6 7 8
Can't think of any neat way of representing them in the Roman alphabet.