Re: Cases and Prepositions (amongst others)

At 2:10 am -0500 15/6/00, Thomas R. Wier wrote:
>Raymond Brown wrote:
>
>> >> "From here"?
>> >
>> >Of course, "here" in this case is used substantively, not adverbially.
>>
>> Sorry, gentleman, but this looks to mean horribly like a "vicious circle"
>> argument.
>>
>> "here" is normally classed as an adverb.
>> So what are we saying?
>> (a) prepositions never govern adverbs;
>> (b) so in the phrase 'from here', 'here' is a substantive.
>> (c) why is it a substantive here?
>> (d) because it is governed by a preposition.
>
>Except, who's saying "here" was originally an adverb?
Chamber's English Dictionary.

I haven't checked, but I'm 100% certain that I'd find the Oxford English
Dictionary does the same - and I'd be surprised if Webster's didn't also.

Some 50 or more years ago at school I was taught that "here" is an adverb
of place.

"here" corresponds almost exactly, as far as I can see, with words
classified as adverbs in other languages, e.g.
Latin: ibi; Fr. ici; Sp. aquí; Port. aqui; It. qui; Rom. aici; Germ. &
Dutch: hier; Dan. & Nor: her; Sw. här; Gr. eDó; Pol. tutaj; Czech: zde;
SerboCroat: ovde;

etc. etc. etc.

>Why not say 'here' originally
>referred simply to a substantive relation,
..because it's governed by a preposition?  But by the very same criterion
Spanish 'aquí' becomes a substantive in the phrase 'por aquí' (here;
colloquial Eng. "by here"), Italian 'qui' becomes a substantive in 'da qui'
(hence, from here) etc.

>and by means of the derivational 'null-morpheme'
>(such as when we get:  "It's a hit!"  from "to hit"), it *can* be used
>adverbially?
'hit' *cannot* be used adverbially - and one cannot say "It's a here" nor,
indeed, is there a verb "to here".  Therefore IMHO 'hit' is not comparable
to 'here'

>I realize that sounds ad hoc;
I agree   :)

[snip]
>
>> I've never seem either the Vulgar Latin phrases nor the Spanish one so
>> described before - rather I've seen them called 'composite adverbs'.  So
>> why ain't 'from here' a composite adverb also?
>
>I'm not saying they're impossible;  only, that I don't think that
>describes English
>syntax.
And now, how does one analyze the common South Walian colloquialism: "from
over by here" ?  Does the preposition 'from' make 'over' into a
substantive?  If so, we then have 'by' linking one substantive with another
which must surely make 'by here' and adjectival phrase, qualifying the
substantive 'over'.

Somehow, I still feel that treating both 'from here' and 'from over by
here' as composite adverbs somewhat easier.

Ray.




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A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
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