Re: THEORY: genitive vs. construct case/izafe
|From:||Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>|
|Date:||Monday, July 25, 2005, 13:29|
"Julia \"Schnecki\" Simon" <helicula@...> writes:
> > "Julia \"Schnecki\" Simon" <helicula@...> writes:
> > Modifier-GEN Modified-X == Modifier-X Modified-CONSTR
> Of course. :-)
Note that I was wrong about the case marking: both systems seem to
mark the head for the phrases case, sorry for that confusion...
> > In colloquial German, there is
> > a similar construction -- so the 3rd persion possessive pronouns seems
> > common in conjunction with genitive (only Germans colloquial
> > construction uses dative case):
> ["dem Vater sein Haus" example snipped]
> *grins* I had thought of that as well. You're in Saarbrücken, aren't
Yes, but I'm not *from* Saarbrücken. The examples apply to many
dialects of German, even colloquial High German, so I did not
want to restrict them to Saarlandian or (Western) Palatinian.
(Also, English has it, as I learned on this list. Very common.)
My own dialect does not frequently use that form, though, so I never
say that. More frequently, a construction with 'von' appears ('das
Haus von meinem Vater') in colloquial version, of my dialect, although
I tend not to use them too ofter either, I think.
> I'm not *in* Saarbrücken right now (haven't been in a long time but
> will be sometime in August, but I digress); but I'm *from*
> Saarbrücken, so when I speak German, I tend to use "X sein/ihr Y"
> constructions rather than the proper genitive, "Xs Y" or "Y des/der
Yes, it's very common in dialects around here. :-)
> (Interestingly enough, Hungarian has a similar construction where the
> possessor appears in dative case: e.g. _a fiúnak a könyve_ (IIRC),
> lit. "to-the-boy his-book".)
That's exactly it. Funny.
> > construction to me. And in Mandarin, you can say: 'Zhe shi wo de' =
> > It is *mine*, so also, 'de' is part of the modifier, so this is also
> > more a 'genitive' construction.
> Hmm... I remember seeing entries in a Mandarin dictionary that ended
> in _de_ and were translated as adjectives (along the lines of
> <wood>+_de_ "wooden", <poison>+_de_ "toxic", etc.)...
The 'de' is the general modifier particle used for many things. The
closest in English would probably be: 's . It is used for relative
clauses too, and for forming structures that translate as participles.
So a closer translation would probably be:
'of wood' -- noun + modifier particle
'poisoning' -- verb + modifier particle
'de' is a very versatile word in Mandarin. Here are some other
'wo3 de cha2'
I MOD tea - my tea
'wo3 he1 de cha2'
I drink MOD tee - (the) tea that I drink.
'he1 cha2 de ren2'
drink tea MOD person - (a) person who drinks tea
'wo3 he1 cha2 de shi2hou4'
- (the time) when I drank tea
'he1 de cha2' - tea that is drunk
'he1 de ren2' - a person who drinks (something)