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Re: THEORY: genitive vs. construct case/izafe

From:Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>
Date:Monday, July 25, 2005, 13:29

"Julia \"Schnecki\" Simon" <helicula@...> writes:
> > "Julia \"Schnecki\" Simon" <helicula@...> writes: > >... > > Modifier-GEN Modified-X == Modifier-X Modified-CONSTR > > Of course. :-)
Note that I was wrong about the case marking: both systems seem to mark the head for the phrases case, sorry for that confusion...
>... > > In colloquial German, there is > > a similar construction -- so the 3rd persion possessive pronouns seems > > common in conjunction with genitive (only Germans colloquial > > construction uses dative case): > > ["dem Vater sein Haus" example snipped] > > *grins* I had thought of that as well. You're in Saarbrücken, aren't > you? >...
Yes, but I'm not *from* Saarbrücken. The examples apply to many dialects of German, even colloquial High German, so I did not want to restrict them to Saarlandian or (Western) Palatinian. (Also, English has it, as I learned on this list. Very common.) My own dialect does not frequently use that form, though, so I never say that. More frequently, a construction with 'von' appears ('das Haus von meinem Vater') in colloquial version, of my dialect, although I tend not to use them too ofter either, I think.
> I'm not *in* Saarbrücken right now (haven't been in a long time but > will be sometime in August, but I digress); but I'm *from* > Saarbrücken, so when I speak German, I tend to use "X sein/ihr Y" > constructions rather than the proper genitive, "Xs Y" or "Y des/der > X".
Yes, it's very common in dialects around here. :-)
> (Interestingly enough, Hungarian has a similar construction where the > possessor appears in dative case: e.g. _a fiúnak a könyve_ (IIRC), > lit. "to-the-boy his-book".)
That's exactly it. Funny.
>... > > construction to me. And in Mandarin, you can say: 'Zhe shi wo de' = > > It is *mine*, so also, 'de' is part of the modifier, so this is also > > more a 'genitive' construction. > > Hmm... I remember seeing entries in a Mandarin dictionary that ended > in _de_ and were translated as adjectives (along the lines of > <wood>+_de_ "wooden", <poison>+_de_ "toxic", etc.)...
The 'de' is the general modifier particle used for many things. The closest in English would probably be: 's . It is used for relative clauses too, and for forming structures that translate as participles. So a closer translation would probably be: 'of wood' -- noun + modifier particle 'poisoning' -- verb + modifier particle 'de' is a very versatile word in Mandarin. Here are some other examples: 'wo3 de cha2' I MOD tea - my tea 'wo3 he1 de cha2' I drink MOD tee - (the) tea that I drink. 'he1 cha2 de ren2' drink tea MOD person - (a) person who drinks tea 'wo3 he1 cha2 de shi2hou4' time,instant - (the time) when I drank tea 'he1 de cha2' - tea that is drunk 'he1 de ren2' - a person who drinks (something) **Henrik


Julia "Schnecki" Simon <helicula@...>