Re: THEORY: genitive vs. construct case/izafe

Hi!

"Julia \"Schnecki\" Simon" <helicula@...> writes:
> > "Julia \"Schnecki\" Simon" <helicula@...> writes:
> >...
> >    Modifier-GEN Modified-X  ==  Modifier-X Modified-CONSTR
>
> Of course. :-)
Note that I was wrong about the case marking: both systems seem to
mark the head for the phrases case, sorry for that confusion...

>...
> > In colloquial German, there is
> > a similar construction -- so the 3rd persion possessive pronouns seems
> > common in conjunction with genitive (only Germans colloquial
> > construction uses dative case):
>
> ["dem Vater sein Haus" example snipped]
>
> *grins* I had thought of that as well. You're in Saarbrücken, aren't
> you?
>...
Yes, but I'm not *from* Saarbrücken.  The examples apply to many
dialects of German, even colloquial High German, so I did not
want to restrict them to Saarlandian or (Western) Palatinian.

(Also, English has it, as I learned on this list.  Very common.)

My own dialect does not frequently use that form, though, so I never
say that.  More frequently, a construction with 'von' appears ('das
Haus von meinem Vater') in colloquial version, of my dialect, although
I tend not to use them too ofter either, I think.

> I'm not *in* Saarbrücken right now (haven't been in a long time but
> will be sometime in August, but I digress); but I'm *from*
> Saarbrücken, so when I speak German, I tend to use "X sein/ihr Y"
> constructions rather than the proper genitive, "Xs Y" or "Y des/der
> X".
Yes, it's very common in dialects around here. :-)

> (Interestingly enough, Hungarian has a similar construction where the
> possessor appears in dative case: e.g. _a fiúnak a könyve_ (IIRC),
> lit. "to-the-boy his-book".)
That's exactly it.  Funny.

>...
> > construction to me.  And in Mandarin, you can say: 'Zhe shi wo de' =
> > It is *mine*, so also, 'de' is part of the modifier, so this is also
> > more a 'genitive' construction.
>
> Hmm... I remember seeing entries in a Mandarin dictionary that ended
> in _de_ and were translated as adjectives (along the lines of
> <wood>+_de_ "wooden", <poison>+_de_ "toxic", etc.)...
The 'de' is the general modifier particle used for many things.  The
closest in English would probably be: 's .  It is used for relative
clauses too, and for forming structures that translate as participles.
So a closer translation would probably be:

   'of wood'   -- noun + modifier particle
   'poisoning' -- verb + modifier particle

'de' is a very versatile word in Mandarin.  Here are some other
examples:

   'wo3 de  cha2'
   I    MOD tea            - my tea

   'wo3 he1    de  cha2'
   I    drink  MOD tee     - (the) tea that I drink.

   'he1  cha2 de  ren2'
   drink tea  MOD person   - (a) person who drinks tea

   'wo3 he1 cha2 de shi2hou4'
                    time,instant
                           - (the time) when I drank tea

   'he1 de cha2'           - tea that is drunk

   'he1 de ren2'           - a person who drinks (something)

**Henrik

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