Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)

Great question, Benct!

Since Teonaht does not distinguish number in its verbs (except the copula,
which is rarely used), I guess it can't answer most of your questions.  But
there are honorific and non honorific forms of the second person, that I
have unimaginatively labeled "familiar" and "formal."

Fy/fel/fyry/fyryi  (Subject, object, emphasized Agent and Experiencer)

This is non-honorific.  You are addressing a peer, a friend, a child, a
family member, or you are speaking down to someone.

Sy/sed/syry/syryi

Honorific.  You are addressing someone you don't know, a superior, you are
being polite to a customer, etc.

Another form of the honorific in Teonaht is to address the person by his
title, constantly:  Does the Sir/Madam wish to examine another coat?  May I
interest the Sir/Madam in an accompanying belt?  etc.  Have I offended the
Sir/Madam?

Le hmeo il kadroplyft kerem lohdar dihs?
the Sir    the  overcoat  see   he question wish?
(the resumptive pronoun will be in the third person)

Imperatives are honorific or non-honorific.  One uses the future form for
polite discourse when issuing a command (or rather inviting someone to take
a future course of action):

You will take the butter and mix it with the sugar.
Deygrin essy      uen,  send  pomil hsakra ain essy vigla.
Butter   will-you take, and   with-the sugar it  will you mix

The Sir/Madam will take the road to the left and go straight to the
intersection.
Or, with plural subjects, one can use the hortative, including oneself in
the "command":

Let us take the road to the left.
Il    naor hsinvvary euants.
The road leftward  let-us-travel.


Non honorific commands are more direct, and require a suffix.  Vera vektof!
"Don't frown."  Mingadol gombref.  "Buy some meat."

I LOVE the idea of honorific first person forms!  But as you say they would
be deferential.  In Teonaht, the only thing that approaches that is the
emphasized form with some kind of deferential adjective:

Yryi hdarodel...
"asking me, ..."
"As for me askingful, ...

etc.

Sally

----- Original Message -----
From: "Benct Philip Jonsson" <bpjonsson@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)


> Sally Caves skrev:
>
>> Actually, it was a plural you, since I couldn't remember who corrected
>> me. Damn language ambiguity!  Shoulda said "y'all."
>
> How about people's a-priori conlangs: are there any that
> have this (to me) weird syncretism of numbers in the second
> person pronouns -- apart of course from English- speaking
> conlangers' newbie relexes, or languages that simply don't
> distinguish number, of course.  And what about honorific/
> polite second person pronouns?  AFAIK there are five
> possible strategies for these in natlangs:
>
> (1) second person plural for polite second person singular.
> (2) third person singular for polite second person singular.
> (3) third person plural for polite second person singular.
> (4) third person plural for polite second person plural.
> (5) a distinct set of polite pronouns -- usually with
>     distinct forms for different persons and numbers.
>
> Obviously (4) implies simultaneous (2), but not the other
> way around.  NB not all of these are exotic from a
> Eurocentric POV: German has (3)+(4), Italian has (2)
> verging on (5), Swedish had (2)+(4) until not so long ago,
> and Spanish is sort of (5).
>
> FWIW honorific 1st person pronouns occur in natlangs
> -- usually as "deference forms", but are there 'aloofness
> forms' too, at least in some conlang?
>
> AFMOCs Mærik is (2)+(4) like older Swedish, Slvanjek is (1),
> being a 'typical' Romance language, while Sohlob -- a-
> priori, and without the cultural ties to any 'real' language
> that Mærik has -- is (2)+(5), there being degrees of
> politeness.
>
>
> --
>
> /BP 8^)>
> --
> Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
>
>         Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
>                                             (Tacitus)
>
> I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
> Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...
>

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