Re: Blue grass and skies

On Thu, Aug 10, 2000 at 01:01:42AM -0700, DOUGLAS KOLLER wrote:
> From: "H. S. Teoh"
>
> > This is interesting... "noksaek" sounds like a derivation from the
> > Cantonese "lok" or perhaps from "lek" in my mothertongue, Hokkien (I'm not
> > sure that's the right transliteration... AFAIK there isn't a consistent
> > orthographic system for my mothertongue yet).
>
> I think you've made the right connection (see previous post). As for
> Hokkien's orthographic system, they're working on it.
[snip]
> Keep in mind that historically, Mandarin is the new kid on the block. Again,
[snip]

Aaaaah, now I see the connection! :-)
*blush* Embarrassing how little I know of the origins of my own
mothertongue... :-O

> > Hmm. "Gold" in Hokkien is "Kim", derived from the Mandarin "qing" (ching
> > or tsing, in the older romanizations).
>
> No, Mandarin is "jin1" (chin, tsin). Hokkien is "gim1" (I'll buy "kim",
> depending on the orthographic system).
Hmm.... I always find it rather awkward that orthographic systems for
Chinese dialects tend to render unvoiced consonants with a letter that's
voiced in English. In Hokkien, the velar in "gim1" (I prefer "kim") is
_unvoiced_. Well, even if some variants of Hokkien (Taiwanese perhaps?)
actually voice it, it's not as strongly voiced as the English "g", AFAIK.

Plus, the word for child in my mothertongue is "gina", and the "g" here is
strongly voiced, like the g in the English word "get". So how would an
orthography differentiate between this g and the unvoiced velar in "gim1"
and the hard, aspirated velar in "ki" (the word for "go")? (Perhaps use
'q' for the latter?)

But of course, I could be pulling this out of nowhere, since "gina" is
probably not a proper Hokkien word but assimilated from the local
Malaysian dialects. (I'm originally from Malaysia.)

[snip]
> > Hey, this could be a way of checking my hypothesis (or conspiracy theory,
> > if you will). "Silver" in Hokkien is "gim". If you find out, I'd like to
> > know if my theory holds up :-)
> >
> > (But I forgot what "copper" in Hokkien is, so we can't check that one for
> > now.)
>
> Mandarin "silver" is "yin2", "copper", "tong2"; Cantonese: "silver",
> "ngan4", "copper", "tong4"; Hokkien: "silver", "ggin5" or "ggun5 (Hokkien
> breaks into distinctions, too), "copper", "dang5" or "dong5"; Japanese
> onyomi: "silver", "gin" (kunyomi: "shirogane"); "copper", "doo" (kunyomi:
> "okagane").
[snip]

Interesting... so Japanese is closer to Hokkien than Mandarin. I guess
that's consistent with the history of the dialects you gave. Cool stuff!
:-)


T