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R: Re: Degrees of volition in active languages (was Re: Chevraqis: asketch)

From:Mangiat <mangiat@...>
Date:Sunday, August 13, 2000, 10:56
Teoh wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 11:26:46AM +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote: > [snip] > > I note an interesting feature here, namely, the use of definite articles > > with proper names. This strikes me as odd, because it is so redundant. > > But then, there all sorts of odd redundant things done in languages. > > This isn't very odd at all. Classical Greek habitually uses articles with > proper names. For example, when referring to Socrates, it is "ho Swkrates" > (literally, "The Socrates") not merely "Swkrates". (I can't recall now if > using "Swkrates" without the article is even allowed -- probably not.)
Spoken Italian does it as well, especially in Northern dialects and widespread (this says my Grammar, but don't ask me why) with feminine nouns. It is not allowed in educated speech unless before the surname of famous people, especially writers and poets. So we have: 'il Luca' is merely Northern Italian (my dialect always does it: 'ul Luca, ul Bröös'). 'la Giovanna' is widespread (?), but not allowed in written language. 'il Manzoni, l'Alighieri, la Deledda' are very much used in written language. Italian is one of the few languages I know to use articles even with nouns already determinated by possessives: 'il mio libro' - 'my book' 'la mia casa' - 'my house' (here there is an exception: you can say 'casa mia' as well) Another exception is with kinship terms: 'mio papà, mia mamma' - 'my daddy, my mummy', but in my dialect you have articles even with those 'ul mè pa, la mè ma' BTW, I, too, think Greek 'So:krate:s' is ungrammatical. I have never found a Greek proper name without the article. Well, I think Greek uses a lot articles. Indeed I've never studied all its declension patterns, you can work well even if you remember the declension of 'ho, he, tò'. Luca