Re: Prescriptivist grammar

One would think that a Spanish grammar, presumably written by Spanish
speaking scholars would know about voseo and its history.  To my
knowledge, your "bastard" vos is descended from the polite vos of 15th
cen. Spain.  I seem to recall from a great long voseo discussion on
sci.lang that it's fairly common in South America.  I've never heard it
here in the US, and have never used it in speech (but frequently in emails
to a Spanish speaking friend) but most Hispanics hereabouts are Mexican or
Central American.  By the way, do you use "che"; and if so, do you know
how it's used?=20

Padraic.

On Thu, 20 May 1999, FFlores wrote:

> Just a couple things I wanted to share with you...
> I found these in an old book, "Gram=E1tica Castellana",
> in my workplace (a community centre's library). It's
> so ridiculous I had to tell you, about the use of
> the pronouns in Argentina, the informal _vos_ "you" vs.
> _t=FA_ ("standard" Spanish). I translate roughly=20
> (UPPERCASE emphasis mine):
>=20
>   In the River Plate, and especially in Argentina,
>   there exists a _vos_ that has nothing to do with
>   that respectful _vos_ [...] It's the most
>   remarkable vice, "the one TRUE STAIN in Argentine         !!!
>   language" [...] Being singular, it agrees with
>   CORRUPT plural forms. [...]
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> [Aside: Spanish is just corrupt Latin, you know...]
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>   And as if this weren't enough, this BASTARD _vos_
>   is accompanied among us with a kind of vocative
>   pronoun, _che_, ambiguous in person, number or
>   gender. [...]
>=20
>   Both the use of _vos_ instead of _t=FA_ and the use
>   of _che_ must be fought against in the classroom
>   and outside of it, UNTIL ITS FULL EXTIRPATION.
>=20
>=20
> This was in the 1950s. I'm glad that such idiocy is
> not being propagated in modern books any more, but
> I have to note that the verb conjugations are still
> given in Castilian Spanish, as if we still were talking
> like that :-(
>=20
> BTW does anybody know where _che_ comes from? I know
> it means "people" (coll.) in Mapuche, a native language
> from the South of Argentina and Chile, but I can't
> believe it spread to the rest of the country from that
> area.
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>=20
> --Pablo Flores
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