Re: THEORY: Phonology: Natlangs: Attested Minimal Pairs?

Thanks, Tim and Patrick.

I wish to continue this question;
and I wish to initially concentrate on vowels,
specifically on rounding and
advancement or retraction of the tongue-root.

I am going to write (or writhe) in C-X-SAMPA;
this is my first time, please be gentle with me.

(To ask some questions, I may need some questions answered.
For instance, is 8_o = 3\_r = @_O ?
Or should I write 8_x = 3\_x = @_O ?
I am going to write a "rounded schwa" as @_O for now.)

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Here are some of my questions about rounding and "widening".

For instance, are there natural languages that have phonemic
(not allophonic) distinctions between each three of the four vowels
@_O_A  @_O_q  @_A_c  @_c_q ?
(A single natlang that had all four of them would answer "yes", of
course; but, just in case, I'm leaving open the possibility that they
are distinguished three-at-a-time in four different natlangs.)
If so, what are(is) the language(s)?  And, what are the minimal pairs
attesting that each two of the (three or four) vowels are different
phonemes in (each of those)/(that) language(s)?

The same question about other groups of vowels.
Are there natlangs that distinguish between each three of the four
vowels in each of the following groups?
y_A  y_q  i_A  i_q ?
M_A  M_q  u_A  u_q ?
a_A  a_q  &_A  &_q ?
A_A  A_q  Q_A  Q_q ?

1\_A  1\_q  1_A  1_q ?

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Assuming 6_o = a_" = A_",
and 6_o_O = &_" = Q_"

are there natlangs that have phonemic contrasts between each three of
the four vowels
6_o_O_A  6_o_O_q  6_o_A  6_o_q ?
(Perhaps rewritable as &_"_A  &_"_q  a_"_A  a_"_q
or as Q_"_A  Q_"_q  A_"_A  A_"_q )

Similarly,
assume e_o = E_r and 2_o = 9_r and 7_o = V_r and o_o = O_r ;

Then, are there natlangs that distinguish between each three of
2_o_A  2_o_q  e_o_A  e_o_q ( 9_r_A  9_r_q  E_r_A  E_r_q )?

of o_o_A  o_o_q  7_o_A  7_o_q ( O_r_A  O_r_q  V_r_A  V_r_q )?

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For any language for which the answer is "yes", what is its name,
what minimal pairs attest to the differences between the phonemes,
what family does it belong to, where is it spoken?

Thanks for any answer, partial or complete, to any of the above
questions.

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OK, that asks all the questions I wanted to explicitly ask about
the interaction of rounding and "widening".  You can see the type of
question I am interested in, and come up with the others yourself.

Now, I would like to ask about the number of degrees of "widening"
and the number of degrees of "rounding" that are distinguished in
natlangs.

For instance, is there a natlang that has three of the six phonemes
@\_c  @\  @\_O  8_c  8  8_O ?
Is there one that has four of them?

Sim for the six phonemes
3_c  3  3_O  3\_c  3\  3\_O ;
does any natlang have four of them?  Does any have three?

The same applies to any other pair of rounded vs unrounded vowels.
How many "degrees of rounding" do natlangs actually distinguish?

For any language for which the answer is "yes", what is its name,
what minimal pairs attest to the differences between the phonemes,
what family does it belong to, where is it spoken?

Now, about the tongue-root;
Does any natlang contain all three of
@_A  @  @_q ?
i_A  i  i_q ?
y_A  y  y_q ?
M_A  M  M_q ?
u_A  u  u_q ?
a_A  a  a_q ?
&_A  &  &_q ?
A_A  A  A_q ?
Q_A  Q  Q_q ?

etc.

For any language for which the answer is "yes", what is its name,
what minimal pairs attest to the differences between the phonemes,
what family does it belong to, where is it spoken?

In sum, how many degrees of advancement vs retraction do natlangs
actually distinguish for vowels?

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Thanks for any answer, partial or complete, to any of the above
questions.

-----

Tom H.C. in MI

--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Tim May <butsuri@M...> wrote:
> Patrick Littell wrote at 2005-08-15 22:32:52 (-0400)
>  > On 8/15/05, Tom Chappell <tomhchappell@y...> wrote:
>  > >
>  > > Hello, everybody in the group and on the list.
>  > > I have a question about phonology.
>  > >  Is every pair of distinguished sounds in IPA actually
attested as a
>  > > minimal pair distinguishing two different lexemes in some
natlang?
>  > >
>  >
>  > > How about every pair of distinguished sounds in X-SAMPA or
>  > > C-XSAMPA?  How about every pair of distinguished sounds in
>  > > Alexander Melville Bell's Visible Speech?
>  > >
>  >
>  > Oh, definitely not. Not even close, really. Let me try to think
of
>  > an example... well, for example, I don't think any distinguish
>  > between bilabial and labiodental fricatives.
>
> Ewe, apparently.  See minimal pairs here:
>
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonant
s/course/chapter11/ewe/ewe.html