CHAT Lloegr (was: Of Angles and Saxons)

On Monday, December 13, 2004, at 05:17 , Sally Caves wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "caeruleancentaur" <caeruleancentaur@...>
>
>> I have seen the proper name Logres somewhere before, perhaps in the
>> Athurian cycle.  I wonder if it's related to the name Lloeger.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> Yes, Charlie.  It's all throughout the Arthurian material, and definitely
> seems borrowed from the Welsh/Cornish/Breton (it's in Chrétien de Troyes
> somewhere) to mean that area of early England once inhabited by the
> Britons.
Yes - a lot of these Brittonic names were transmitted to the English
through French, thanks to Chrétien de Troyes who almost certainly got them
via Breton. *Lo:gr- is no longer preserved in modern Cornish or Breton BTW.
  The final -s is pobably just the Old French nominative ending.

It was the Arthurian use that misled me into thinking it applied to the
whole island. Of course it does not, as sally points out. The modern welsh
word for the island of Britain is _Prydain_ <-- Brittonic: Prita:ni.

On checking today, i fond that Geoffrey of Monmouth uses the form
_Loegria_ and derives it from the name of King Locrin, the eldest son of
Brutus who, according to Geoffrey, gave hos name to the island, i.e.
Britain, and who was the son of Iulus, son of Aeneas (who escaped from
Troy), son of Venus, daughter of Jupiter! I think we can disregard his
etymologies; but his use of the name is interesting.

> Logres has also become something of a cult word, and I find it links to
> several "Celtic Magic" sites on the Internet.
Groan   :=(

...and I bet they don't link it with Venus & Jupiter.
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On Monday, December 13, 2004, at 02:37 , John Cowan wrote:

> Wesley Parish scripsit:
>
>>> Sally - or anyone else - do you know the origin of Lloeger?
>>
>> I've always connected it with the god Lugh, in a sense of "Lugh's land".
>> I'm probably wrong. ;)
I would think so.

> Poking about on the net shows a pretty clear lack of consensus, with
> most sources simply saying "etymology unknown".  The least ugly of
> the etymologies gives us Lloegr < LEGORENSIS (CASTRUM) > Leicester,
> an old borrowing -- but if so, where does the Latin root come from,
> if not simply borrowed from an older British?
Exactly - and......
=============================================

On Monday, December 13, 2004, at 02:38 , Sally Caves wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ray Brown" <ray.brown@...>
[snip]

>> 'England' is,however, 'Lloegr', a more ancient name an one which, I
>> believe, was once given to the whole island, to show that the Saxons are
>> native to the land but invaders/ settlers    :)
I'm sure I was wrong about the name belonging to the whole island. But the
use of the name does, I think, show that the old Welsh regarded the land
as something distinct from the 'foreign' Saxons who had occupied it.

>> Sally - or anyone else - do you know the origin of Lloeger?
Oooops! Sorry about the typo - I meant _Lloegr_ of course.

> Well, I have heard that it comes from Legorencis Civitas, the early name
> given to Leicester, but I'm a little skeptical of this etymology,
> especially
> since the Romans probably got the name from the Britons.
A 'civitas' in Roman usage referred to a political division or "tribe",
not to a town. Also I think you & John are right to be skeptical. The
actual Roman name for the settlement at Leicester was: _Ratae (Coritanorum)
  "Ratae of the Coritani". It was the capital 'city' (more like a town,
really) of the Civitas Coritananorum.

The English name _Leicester_ is simply not derived from the old Roman name.
  Now the Old English often added _ceaster_ to place names of earlier Roman
setllements, whether they carried the word _castrum/ castra_ in its
earlier Roman name or not. But_ Leicester_ cannot be drived from _Ratae_ +
ceaster.

Other problems: _Legorensis_ is not likely to have got watered down just
to Lei- in Leicester, nor do I see how Lloegr could be derived from it.
The medial -g- would have gone, and the vowels are wrong.

The Welsh for Leicester is _Caerlŷr_ that is "Lear's 'ceaster'".
(Those whose mailers cannot read it: ŷ is |y| with a circumflex)

_Llŷr_ is the Welsh form of Lear, the King that Shakespeare wrote about in
his venture into the 'fabulous Celtic twilight'. The name is spelled
_Leir_ by Geoffrey of Monmouth. I find the Old English for Leicester was
_Ligeraceaster_; I suspect the Ligera- has more to do with Llŷr/Lear/Leir
(remembering that Old British medial -g- became silent in Welsh & the
other Brittonic langs) than it has to do with Lloegr.

> Unfortunately I
> don't have the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymry here at home.  (What a nice
> Christmas present.
Indeed - but I don't think Santa will be bringing it my way.

> I'm sure it's about 500 dollars!)  It may very well give
> the etymology of Lloegr.
> I can look if I go in today, which I think I will.
Thanks  :)

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]

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