Re: Etruscana (was: some Proto-Quendic grammar)

On Thursday, November 20, 2003, at 12:16 AM, Doug Dee wrote:

> In a message dated 11/18/2003 1:08:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> ray.brown@FREEUK.COM writes:
>
>
>> Most of the objective evidence about
>> Etruscan
>> does not indicate IE connexion as far as I can see.   Try these numerals:
>> 1  thu  /t_hu/
>> 2  zal
>> 3  ci   /ki/
>> 4  sa
>> 5  mach /mak_h/
>> 6  huth
>
>
> Oddly enough, I have a book about Etruscan* that says:
>
> 1 = ez (first = zal)
> 2 = thu
> 3 = ci
> 4 = huth
> 5 = mach
> 6 = s'a
>
> Apparently there's still some dispute about the numerals.  That must make
> comparative work rather difficult.
Yes - but not all those shown here.  I've not met any authority that swaps
the
first two around.   As singular & plurals seem to be fairly
straightforward to spot,
I do not understand why Fred Woudhuizen thinks 'thu' is a plural numeral.

His values, by the way, has two pairs of opposite faces on the dice (to
which I
referred in my email of  19th Nov.)adding up
to 6, and the other pair adding up to 9.
s'a + ci = 9;
mach + zal = 6;
thu + huth = 6.

I think he needs to give same pretty convincing arguments why the Etruscan
didn't
use the same practice as the ancient Romans, i.e. have all opposite faces
totaling
7 (as on most modern dice).

All the authorities I've come across have been in agreement that:
thu = 1
zal = 2
ci = 3
mach = 5

The only dispute that I was aware of is 4 and 6.  Some people think that
'huth'
must mean 4, because _Huttenia_ (YTTHNIA) was an alternative name for
Attic community
of Tetrapolis.  Therefore, Huttenia is the old pre-Greek name, and  'hutt-'
  = 'tetra-'
= 4; "Oh look, there's in _huth_ in Etruscan, that proves it means four".

But IMHO the argument is very weak.  There are towns in Wales that have
two names and
one is not a translation of the other, cf:
Casnewydd (new castle) ~ Newport
Cas-Gwent (Gwent Castle) ~ Chepstow (< from Old English "market town")
Abertawe (mouth of [river] Tawe) ~ Swansea (from Nordic = Sven's island)

So we do not actually know that Huttenia & Tetrapolis mean the same.  Nor
do we know
whether any Etruscan related language was ever spoken there. And to cite
this as
confirmation of _huth_ = hutt- = 4 strikes me as a vicious circle argument.

The _huth_ = 4 people, (who then say _sa_ = 6) again have odd values for
opposite faces
on the dice:
sa + ci = 9;
mach + zal = 7;
thu + huth = 5.

I think these people need strong reasons to show why the pair of ivory
dice do not
follow the common ancient custom; and IMO they do not present such
evidence.

There is my mind no doubt that those who are unbiased and look at the
Etruscan evidence
alone assign would assign _sa_ (the initial should be the sibilant usually
transcribed
oddly as s-acute) = 4, and _huth_ = 6.

>
> *_Linguistica Tyrrenica_ by Fred C. Woudhuizen.  I don't know if it's
> considered reliable.
Nor I - I've not come across it before.  But the numerals don't seem very
encouraging.
 ========================================================================

Since my mail of yesterday, I've done some more research.  I was pretty
sure all the
other numeral words were known, but I forgotten.  Anyway, I've tracked it
down:

The numbers for 7, 8 and 9 are, not necessarily in this order: semph, cezp,
  nurph.
The x10 forms, _semphalch_ and _cezpalch_ are also attested.  From funerary
inscriptions, semphalch is, I believe, a little more common than
_cezpalch_ and
therefore on balance it's more likely the more common is 70 rather than 80.
   Anyway,
the most common attribution is: semph (7), cezp (8), nurph (9).

_Sar_ (initial s-acute) seems to be 10; we an example of a 'teen', huthzar
(16).

It is known that the Romans of classical times formed words like 18, 19,
28, 28,
etc. with duode- (two from) & unde- (one from), thus duodeuiginti,
undeuiginti;
duodetriginta, undetriginta.  It is possible that this was developed under
Etruscan influence; but the Etruscans began subtracting one earlier, thus:
ci-em-zathrum (3 from 20) = 17
esl-em-zathrum = 18  (esl- is an allomorph of 'zal'
thun-em-zathrum = 19

Ray
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