Re: Question about supines, gerunds, and the like
|From:||Richard Wordingham <richard.wordingham@...>|
|Date:||Tuesday, May 18, 2004, 23:05|
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Ray Brown <ray.brown@F...> wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2004, at 10:41 AM, Jeff Jones wrote:
> > Here's my understanding: Originally there was simply the futurepassive
> > participle.
> What is your evidence? I know of no evidence whatever for this. Asfar as
> I can tell, the description "future passive participle" is aninvention of
> latter-day western prescriptive grammarians, possibly originatingfrom its
> occasional use as such in _late_ Latin (see below).
> If the gerundive had, indeed, been such a participle we wouldexpect forms
> such as 'capiendus esse' to supply the needed 'future passiveinfinitive'
> in the commonly used 'accusative and infinitive construction'. Wedo not.
> Instead we find either 'captum iri' (supine + impersonalinfinitive of "to
> go") or, more commonly, 'fore ut' + subjunctive.
> It is surely not credible that the Romans would've used these
> circumlocutions for the future passive infinitive, if a simpler,more
> straightforward construction were available.
> As far as I'm aware, no satisfactory explanation has been givenfor the
> origin of the Latin gerundive. It appears to be derived from aform -(o)n-
> + the adjectival formative -do- (cf. timidus, frigidus etc. forthe latter)
> . The earliest examples do not show any future meaning; theyappear to be
> adjectives which vaguely mean "involved in the action of.....",and to
> have had an active meaning with intransitive verbs, e.g. oriundus("born
> from, originating from"), secundus ("following, favorable [ofwind],
> following [the first], second"), and a passive meaning withtransitives, e.
> g. caedundus 'involved in being killed'.
Jens E. Rasmussen believes they derive from the PIE middle
participle in *-mh1no-. Unfortunately, I don't know his explanation
of the sound changes involved. His views appear to be recorded
in "The origin of the Latin gerund and gerundive", Copenhagen
Working Papers in Linguistics 4, 1996, 149-59.