Re: The Need for Debate
| From: | Wesley Parish <wes.parish@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Thursday, December 9, 2004, 12:14 |
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On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:27, Ray Brown wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 08:04 , Andreas Johansson wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > Horned helmets was used back in the bronze age, in both Scandinavia and
> > the
> > British Isles.
>
> Right - so that was the source for those Victorian illustrations.
>
> > There seems to be no evidence that actual vikings used them, tho.
>
> That's what I was thinking of. They have now become associated in the
> popular mind in Britain with Vikings. "If he's a Viking he will wear ha
> horned helmet" - "If he is wearing a horned helmet, he must be a Viking"
> Both statements quite without foundation of course!
>
> > Presumably they were part of formal attire rather than for combat - they'
> > re rather big and clumsy.
Absolutely useless for deflecting a sharp sword. They'd come off in the first
stoush.
>
> Yes, indeed - but that does not stop the popular picture of these warriors
> streaming from their long boats in the horned helmets, all set for a
> weekend of rape of pillage :)
>
> > One shouldn't make blanket statements whether the Vikings were
> > destructive or
> > not; _some_ certainly were mere destroyers, pillagers and killers, who
> > civilization would have done better without; others were constructive,
> > setting
> > up cities and trade routes.
>
> Absolutely!! How I detest stereotypes.
>
> > And, of course, most Scandinavians of the period weren't Vikings at all.
I'm reminded of Jorge Luis Borge's put-down of a Spaniard, who had claimed
that the Spanish had established an empire, etc. JL Borge's response was
that they were his ancestors and the Spaniards' were the lazy stay-behind
ones.
That being said, I've noticed a number of my English ancestors are from the
Danelaw, and other yet came from Normandy, ergo I've got vikingr ancestry. I
presume that means I'm ready for a weekend of pillaging as soon as I can
stomach fitting into absurdist stereotypes. ;)
It would not do to mention it as a reason for migrating to the United Kingdom
- "I'm just here for the pillaging. It's an ancestral tradition, don't you
know!? Where do I start?" :-)
>
> That's your story and you're sticking to it! (just kidding :)
> ===============================================
>
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 05:52 , John Cowan wrote:
> > Ray Brown scripsit:
> >> Galileo's problem was....
>
> [snip}
>
> > His other problem was that he was a lifelong flamer, a troll, and
> > a net.assassin of the very worst kind, and probably had a profitable
> > sideline selling the Italian edition of "How to Lose Friends and Alienate
> > People". He had the regrettable habit of calling a spade a God-damned
> > shovel, even when it was being wielded by a Prince (of the Church or the
> > State, it hardly mattered). As a result of having cheesed off everyone
> > in Italy, he was brought up on charges of making the Pope look like a
> > fool (which he had unquestionably done), was shown the instruments of
> > torture (but they were never used on him), and was told to go home and
> > stay there, which he duly did.
>
> So, not a good debater, then? It seems to me he was very fortunate to have
> been born in Italy at the time he was.I cannot imagine anyone like that
> living long in Tudod England! To make henry VIII look a fool was to sign
> one's own death warrant; and his off-spring were no better.
>
> >>> There's also often the problem of
> >>> perspective: for instance, the "barbarians" (Goths, Vandals etc) who
> >>> eroded the roman empire near the end. Were they really that bad? Was
> >>> there nothing important that was good to say about them?
> >>
> >> Yes, particularly the Goths.
> >
> > The reason the Goths took over the Western Roman Empire (basically just
> > Italy at this point) was to protect the remaining glories of Roman
> > civilization
> > from the real thugs, like the Franks and the Bulgars.
>
> Yep - and didn't they hold off the Huns a bit as well? The Visigoth
> kingdom in Spain was IIRC on balance "a good thing".
>
> --
> Here lies the Christian, John Cowan
> judge, and poet Peter,
>
http://www.reutershealth.com
> Who broke the laws of God
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> and man and metre. jcowan@reutershealth.com
>
> Ray
> ===============================================
>
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
> ray.brown@freeuk.com
> ===============================================
> Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
> which is not so much a twilight of the gods
> as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]