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Re: The Need for Debate

From:Wesley Parish <wes.parish@...>
Date:Thursday, December 9, 2004, 12:14
On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 20:27, Ray Brown wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 08:04 , Andreas Johansson wrote: > [snip] > > > Horned helmets was used back in the bronze age, in both Scandinavia and > > the > > British Isles. > > Right - so that was the source for those Victorian illustrations. > > > There seems to be no evidence that actual vikings used them, tho. > > That's what I was thinking of. They have now become associated in the > popular mind in Britain with Vikings. "If he's a Viking he will wear ha > horned helmet" - "If he is wearing a horned helmet, he must be a Viking" > Both statements quite without foundation of course! > > > Presumably they were part of formal attire rather than for combat - they' > > re rather big and clumsy.
Absolutely useless for deflecting a sharp sword. They'd come off in the first stoush.
> > Yes, indeed - but that does not stop the popular picture of these warriors > streaming from their long boats in the horned helmets, all set for a > weekend of rape of pillage :) > > > One shouldn't make blanket statements whether the Vikings were > > destructive or > > not; _some_ certainly were mere destroyers, pillagers and killers, who > > civilization would have done better without; others were constructive, > > setting > > up cities and trade routes. > > Absolutely!! How I detest stereotypes. > > > And, of course, most Scandinavians of the period weren't Vikings at all.
I'm reminded of Jorge Luis Borge's put-down of a Spaniard, who had claimed that the Spanish had established an empire, etc. JL Borge's response was that they were his ancestors and the Spaniards' were the lazy stay-behind ones. That being said, I've noticed a number of my English ancestors are from the Danelaw, and other yet came from Normandy, ergo I've got vikingr ancestry. I presume that means I'm ready for a weekend of pillaging as soon as I can stomach fitting into absurdist stereotypes. ;) It would not do to mention it as a reason for migrating to the United Kingdom - "I'm just here for the pillaging. It's an ancestral tradition, don't you know!? Where do I start?" :-)
> > That's your story and you're sticking to it! (just kidding :) > =============================================== > > On Tuesday, December 7, 2004, at 05:52 , John Cowan wrote: > > Ray Brown scripsit: > >> Galileo's problem was.... > > [snip} > > > His other problem was that he was a lifelong flamer, a troll, and > > a net.assassin of the very worst kind, and probably had a profitable > > sideline selling the Italian edition of "How to Lose Friends and Alienate > > People". He had the regrettable habit of calling a spade a God-damned > > shovel, even when it was being wielded by a Prince (of the Church or the > > State, it hardly mattered). As a result of having cheesed off everyone > > in Italy, he was brought up on charges of making the Pope look like a > > fool (which he had unquestionably done), was shown the instruments of > > torture (but they were never used on him), and was told to go home and > > stay there, which he duly did. > > So, not a good debater, then? It seems to me he was very fortunate to have > been born in Italy at the time he was.I cannot imagine anyone like that > living long in Tudod England! To make henry VIII look a fool was to sign > one's own death warrant; and his off-spring were no better. > > >>> There's also often the problem of > >>> perspective: for instance, the "barbarians" (Goths, Vandals etc) who > >>> eroded the roman empire near the end. Were they really that bad? Was > >>> there nothing important that was good to say about them? > >> > >> Yes, particularly the Goths. > > > > The reason the Goths took over the Western Roman Empire (basically just > > Italy at this point) was to protect the remaining glories of Roman > > civilization > > from the real thugs, like the Franks and the Bulgars. > > Yep - and didn't they hold off the Huns a bit as well? The Visigoth > kingdom in Spain was IIRC on balance "a good thing". > > -- > Here lies the Christian, John Cowan > judge, and poet Peter, > http://www.reutershealth.com > Who broke the laws of God http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > and man and metre. jcowan@reutershealth.com > > Ray > =============================================== > http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown > ray.brown@freeuk.com > =============================================== > Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight, > which is not so much a twilight of the gods > as of the reason." [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]
-- Wesley Parish * * * Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish * * * Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."