Re: word derivation in sabyuka (some principles)

le mar 16-07-2002 à 21:36, Christophe Grandsire a écrit :
> Well, I'm answering now, but I won't be able to read the next reply :(( : I'm
> going nomail tonight for reasons of trip to France (my family hasn't seen me
> for a year and a half, it's time to repair that).
So welcome back ;).


> What about if a weak vowel meets another weak vowel? Or that a medium vowel
> meets another medium vowel? Those cases are not explained here :(( . Other than
> that, I find it a neat system.
Yes, my laziness made me go over those contexts. The truth is that I haven't worked
those contexts yet :(.


> Have you tried the sentence "el perro de San Roque no tiene rabo"? I remember
> repeating it over and over again until I managed to pronounce the trilled r
> correctly :)) . And when you manage (which always happens. If you can make a
> French [d], you can make a trilled r, just put the tongue a little more back
> and let it flap :))) ), it feels ununderstandable why you didn't manage before
> (believe me, that's how I reacted :)) ).
I'm trying, I can do at best one flap and a half ! If I do two
vibrations, I get something close to /pEr@rO/. And it doesn't sound that
good.


> Then never try Georgian!!! :))) . To me, "sxrauxbo" is quite easy to pronounce.
> But then, I don't even have a problem with the /kv/ cluster! :))
But /kv/ is not a matter. I can pronounce russian /dnjom/ or /moskva/,
or even /ntamak/, the french rugby player often called [Entamak]. As
long as there is no trilled r.

>
> > Yes, you're right I give you the consonantic system :
> > 'p' = /p/
> > 't' = /t/
> > 'z' = /t^s/
> > 'tl' = /t^l/
> > 'c' = /t^S/
> > 'k' = /k/
> > 'q' = /k^w/
> > 'b' = /b/
> > 'd' = /d/
> > 'j' = /d^Z/
> > 'm' = /m/
> > 'n' = /n/
> > 'f' = /f/
> > 'th' = /T/
> > 's' = /s/
> > 'x' = /S/
>
> Ha? /t_s/, /t_S/, /d_Z/, /f/, /T/, /s/ and /S/, but no /z/ or /Z/? Well, not
> that it's unnaturalistic, but I'd at least see /z/ in. Because I'm just
> wondering whether you can have a lonely voiced affricate when you don't even
> have a voiced fricative.
Actually this can happen. Sanskrit has a palatal affricate /dZ/, and
even an aspirated /dZ^h/ but it lacks a voiced fricative series ;).
Anyway, affricates are regarded as pure consonants and not as
pseudo-plosives or fricative-like sounds.
But here is another way to see the system :
p  t  z  c  k
.  .  tl .  q
b  d  .  j  .

As you see anywhere there is a consonant with a sonorant release, there
is no voiced counterpart. The history of the language is not already
written, but I think that /tl/ is the oldest complex consonant, and /kw/
originates from *g (certainly *g>*gw>kw). I think that original *dz and
*ts will merge together to actual 'z' (/ts/) as such an opposition was
not economic in the language.  So the original system may be /p t ts tS
k ; tl ; b d dz dZ g/.

Just notice that the [g] is often lacking in phonological systems
because it is the hardest plosive to pronounce (compared to /b/ and /d/)
(as well as /p/ is the hardest to hear and is often lacking too (arabic
for instance)).The devoicement of /dz/ to /ts/ also occurred in spanish
(before /ts/ became /T/), so I guess it is not so unnaturalistic (with
regard to the evolution of the tongue, of course ;)).


>
> Apart from that, I like the presence of the lateral affricate and the rounded
> velar :)) .
Yes, they are good-hearing ! And if you like voiceless sounds (I really
love voiceless plosives, and /k/ is the best to my ears), you'll love
nahuatl.


> Believe me, the trill is really not a difficult sound. It
> just needs enough training :)) .
Well, my phonetic teacher, who is a 60 years old man, can't pronounce
it. He read articles where this sound was called "monstruosité
articulatoire" ("articulatory monster"), and I think it is.


> >
> > That's exactly what I'm looking for, naturalisticity.:) And keep in
> > mind
> > this is standard sabyukà, but there will be dialects where /rr/ is a
> > legal geminate ;).
> >
>
> LOL. Your girlfriend's dialect maybe? :))))
Exactly, unless she prefers the so liquid and quiet 'll' to the rude and
heavy 'rr' :P.

>
> > It depends, I saw both notations, as the vowel is the syllable
> > nucleus.
>
> Yep, but if you're using the IPA or an ASCII transcription of it, then you're
> quite obliged to use the notation of the stress in front of the syllable
> itself, because that's how the IPA does :)) .
I saw it with IPA ;), but I must confess that before the whole syllable it's much
more common.



> > But you're right, yours is better ;). However, what I meant was
> > ['sabiru] *instead of* ['saby@ru] (and not *for*), as I was refering
> > to
> > the pronounciation of the word. Thank you to have noticed it :).
> >
>
> You're welcome. But it was not really a mistake, I thought that it was what you
> meant, but I was in a correcting mood and when I'm there it's difficult to
> stop :(( . Sorry.
Nevermind. I like things to be as neat as possible :).


> > I do love this feature :))) It came up as I was wondering what
> > 'sabyukà'
> > could mean in the language (I had the word but not its meaning yet).
> >
>
> Hehe, I am probably gonna do that with Maggel as well. Except that in that case
> it will probably be a worn down phrase rather than a Euskara-like
> structure :))) .
You make me curious and then you go away for a while. This is really
unfair LOL. I hope you'll have a translation for Maggel when back :)

> >
> > The inanimate reference marker (-kà) is a suffix intended to
> > nominalize
> > the root meaning.
> > But nominal roots (like 'urà' "water") can give pairs such as :
> > 'urà' = "water"
> > 'urkà' (ur+kà) = "lake", "sea".("water+RM", "that which +(is) water" )
> >
> > '-jà' is an animate reference marker, with most of times an agentive
> > meaning. A conqueror is a "smakjà" ['smag.d^Z@] ("want+RM", "the one
> > who
> > wants").
>
> Neat. So -ek- is still semi-productive. Interesting. I wonder how it would be
> applied to new verbs...
Well, so do I :(. But I'm working it out ;).

> By the way, don't worry about the fact that I'm going nomail, I'll read your
> reply from the archives when I come back home next week (and maybe give a reply
> then, thus ressucitating a probably dead thread ;))))) ).
So have a nice.

Regards,

Julien.

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