Re: Order of logograms

Charlie:
<<
Because logograms cannot be alphabetized, how are they ordered?  There
are Chinese dictionaries, aren't there?
 >>

Many people have told you the Chinese answer, which I think
points to one thing: it's partially language-dependent--and that
goes for both languages, with a dual-language dictionary.  For
example, in Egyptian dictionaries, symbols are ordered by
phonetic value, but the order of phonetic values was determined,
as far as I know, by an Egyptologist; there's nothing inherent
to the Egyptian language about the order.  (Or, perhaps it was
based on the Greek order.)  In the book I have, each glyph is
also given a number.  Where the same phonetic value is given
for two different glyphs (which is rare), the one with the earliest
numbered initial glyph goes first.

In my orthographic language X, since I speak English, I gave each
glyph an English name, and they're ordered in that way in
English alphabetical order--at least, primarily.  A given glyph
must appear with a determinative to have meaning.  I numbered
the determinatives (in an order that's totally idiosyncratic), and
when, say, I have three words that all feature the eye glyph and
differ only in their determinative, I order them by the number of
the determinative.  Their numbers are below:

http://dedalvs.free.fr/x/determinatives.html

With Kamakawi, I came up with an alphabetical order for the
phonemes before I ever even thought of an orthography.  When
I finally decided that I would have an orthography, though, I
decided on an Egyptian-style system, and I honestly have no
idea how I would order the glyphs in, say, a Kamakawi-only
dictionary.  Given that there is a syllabic script used to spell
things out (e.g., loan words), I might do it by syllable.  I believe
the result would be the same as the phonemic order I have
currently, though...  (Wouldn't that be a happy coincidence?)

I can imagine that there could be several (con-)culturally-specific
systems that could arise.  For example, a cleric could decide on
the "holy" order of the glyphs, and dictionary makers thereafter
would follow suit.  In the back of my Egyptian book, there are
several lists of glyphs, to wit:

(1) Dictionary-style: All words are listed in phonemic order.
(2) Numbered: Arbitrary numbers are assigned to glyphs.
(3) Shape: Long glyphs, flat glyphs, round glyphs...
(4) Theme: Human glyphs, bird glyphs, religious glyphs...

In the last two lists, each glyph is numbered with the number it
gets it the numbered list, so you can cross-reference.  I think this
would be ideal for an online-database (e.g., each glyph is pre-linked
to a definition of that glyph, as well as some words it appears in,
and there are lists by shape, theme, size, etc.).  I'm sure there are
a number of creative ways it can be done.

-David
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"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."

-Jim Morrison

http://dedalvs.free.fr/

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