Re: 'Nor' in the World's Languages

From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 8:36 AM

> In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have
> you implemented?
>
> Examples would be:
>
> 1. A and B - AND
> 2. A or B or both (A and B) - the "inclusive or", OR
> 3. A or B but not both (A and B) - the "exclusive or", XOR
> 4. If A, then B - "A implies B"
> 5. A only if B - "A is implied by B"
> 6. A if and only if B  - "A and  B imply each other", "A
> and  B are equivalent"
> 7. not A - ie the statement A is not true - cf Malay
> "tidak" for logical negation, below
> 8. M is not a N - ie the thing M is not one of the things
> N - cf Malay "bukan" for categorical negation, below
> 9. neither A nor B - ie not A and not B
I expect this to be just like in German

1. A nay B
2. A soyang B
3. Si A si B
4. Bata A kada B
5. A-nama bata B
6. --
7. A-oy
8. A B-oy
9. Sing A sing B

Like in German or English, really.

> _1)  Malay certainly uses a standard "logical" negation
> "tidak" for a "logical" /neither ... nor .../
> construction.
>
> Malay uses a phrase : "juga tidak", literally "also not"
> eg "I neither knew nor wanted that" would be
> "sahaya tidak tahu juga tidak mahu itu", literally
> "I not know also not want that".
Sing makoronayang adanyaley sing manōayang.
Neither PST.know.1s.A that.P nor PST.want.1s.A

> This form, using "juga", differentiates it from an
> implicit conditional structure, such as the
> following proverb: eg "[If you] don't know, [you]
> don't want" would be "tidak tahu, tidak mahu",
> literally "not know, not want".
Bata koronoyevāng kada nōyevāng.
If know.NEG.2s.A then want.NEG.2s.A

> _2) There is also a separate word in Malay for
> "categorical" negation: "bukan", which you would
> need to use for a "categorical"  /neither ... nor
> .../ construction.
>
> eg "Neither fish nor fowl" would be
> "Bukan ikan juga bukan ayam [pula]", literally
> "Not-fish also not-fowl [again/likewise/furthermore]".
Sing ... sing ... again. Cool feature however :-)

> It's a truism that language is not logic.  So it should be
> no surprise that some natural language constructions,
> which use words we have adopted as models of logical
> operations, such as "if", "not" and "and", are not
> strictly
> logical in using those very same words.  And any attempt
> in
> everyday speech to use those words very precisely is
> usually derided as pedantry, or just "being smart".  You
> know all this, I'm sure!
The Zwiebelfisch had a column about that on Spiegel.de some
time ago. Mr Sick wrote that his friend Henry can drive
him crazy with his prescriptivism regarding the logical use
of "yes" and "no". Sick focused on double negatives in his
article, though, the top example that was quoted was a
valid sentence in Bavarian which violates any rules of
logic:
"Der hat niemals net koa Geld net g'habt" (That guy never
ever has no money not had).

Cheers,
Carsten

--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Venena, Pihaling 21, 2315 ya 20:36:33 pd