THEORY: Re : Re: THEORY: irregular conlangs

Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 04/10/99 09:06:02  , Christophe a =E9crit :


>  > >         Just like Japanese which makes its plural pronouns regularly =
by
>  > > suffixing '-tachi' to some singular pronouns (this suffix means "...=20
and
>  > > others" and can be used on names to mean "X and others").
>  >
>  > I thought there was another suffix which could also be used?
>  >
> =20
>          Except the suffix -ra, used with kare: him, I can't find any othe=
r
>  suffix. But my Japanese is still pretty basic :)
> =20
but it's good anyone who knows either bits or all cares to discuss japanese.
i'm sure there are japanese lurking the list, but they seldom post.

japanese has no consistant plural, or rather no plural like we discussed it
already regarding 'asian' langs.

-tachi is used for some humans : tomodachi
-ra is used for some humans (of "one side") : kodomora
reduplication is used with some inanimates : yamayama

then you can use adverb/adjectives :
ikuraka (no) : some
subete (no) : all
arayuru : all kinds of
etc.

>  > >         But Japanese don't use them very often (seeing their length,=20
> that's not
>  > > a surprise :) ).
>  >
>  > Do you mean that "watashi" can mean "we" as well as "I"?
>  >
> =20
>          No, they don't use any pronoun at all. "Watashi" is as seldom use=
d=20
> as
>  its plural counterpart "watashitachi". And I'm not talking of "anata"
>  which is even considered rude when used with people other than near
>  family and close friends (it's as rude as pointing one's finger to
>  someone else in France).
> =20
to point to persons, you use tens of auxiliary verbs.
i guess anybody can check the following forms in a
basic grammar, but i still write them below because
it may be a good stuff for conlanging : many conlangs use
me-you, you-him etc. pronouns, but none verbs as far as i know.
so why not ?

-yaru : from me to him/you (deprecative, used with animals, children)
-ageru : from me to him/you (polite)
-sashiageru : same but very, very polite
-morau : from him/you to me
-kureru : from him/you to him/me
-kudasaru : same, polite

there are also plenty of verbs with polite forms :
kiku (hear, listen, ask) > ossharu
miru (see)  > o me ni kakaru
kuru, iku, iru, etc. (come, go, be in) > irassharu

then you combine them with factive and passive voices and
other forms :

o tori shimasu : i take (o + noun + do)
o tori ni narimasu : you take (o + nou + become)
toraremasu : (passive) i, you take (or he takes if he's one of "your side").
totte moraimasu : you take (for me)
torasete moraimasu : you let me take it
torasete kuremasu : you let me/him take

etc. fun, eh ?

ambiguity is sometime cleared by using other polite nouns.
and when speaking of "him" contrasting to "me", you try
and use the imperfective whenever possible
(this trick is not written in any grammar i know BTW).
or you can use various clitics at the end of the sentence.

japanese are great conlangers ;-)

mathias