Re : Re: going without "without"

Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 17/08/99 20:08:08  , Matt a =E9crit :

> > How do
>  > people express "without" in their conlangs?
> =20
all my adpositions being verbs, i use "not...ing" :

tamnam tatram ring kakab.
i-walk i-lean-on not stick
"i walk without leaning on a stick".

tamnam kalbem ring ash.
i-walk i-am-accompanied not by-you
"i walk without you".

tamnam kalbem ash ring.
i-walk i-am-accompanied by-you not
"i walk without you (but maybe with someone else)".

(like in valdyan and many other conlangs
negation can either stick to the predicate or any argument
of the sentence)

what strikes me is that a same preposition "with"
is used as both commitative and instrumental in
non-IE languages i know :

(indonesian)

saya berlari dengan cepat
i run "with speed".

saya berlari dengan teman-teman
i run with friends.

"dengan" ("with") derives from "dan" ("and").
=20
interestingly - i think -, japanese uses the instrumental clitic
"de" to show the place where an action is performed, as if that place
where an instrument itself. i find this pretty logical since the place
becomes a facility to perform the action :

ie ni suwaru
house LOC sit
"sitting in the house"

*ie wo aruku
house ACC walk
"walking in the house"

ie de hataraku
house INS work
"working in the house"

mathias