Re: CHAT: A sample of my newborn conlang

On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 23:46:53 +0300
Pavel Iosad <pavel_iosad@...> wrote:


> > Especially since there are four 'phonetic tricks' used for grammatical
> > reasons - urú (eclipsis), seimhiú (lenition, I think; e.g. /p/->/f/),
> > and for vowels a sort of i-affection and something related which for the
> > moment I'm just calling 'vowel-grading'
> What is the last one about?
He he... you'll be sorry you asked ... well, it's indirectly derived
from the i-affection - If you were to set up an 'idealised' grid with
each column containing a 'starter' vowel (one that can't be reached by
i-affection) at the top, and the vowels in the path it follows as you
repeatedly i-affect it in the rest of the column (so, e.g. a->ae->ai>aii
as one column); and then you arrange the columns in 'rotating around the
vowel trapezoid' order by their starter vowel... then the graded version
of the vowel is the one to the right and below the vowel!

In short, it's (roughly, with exceptions) what you get if you rotate one
phonemic place around the vowel trapezoid and then apply i-affection.
Sounds rather contrived, but I'm finding it quite natural, since there
is a systematic, though not obvious, connection between a vowel and its
graded version; and already I'm beginning to associate it semantically
with certain inflections, such as the one that takes an intransitive
verb into its transitive counterpart: e.g. <thoos> "count" to <thuisen>.


[snip]

> > ... I opted for the first, thought it still causes problems with some
> > letters. Similar problem with the lenition. The vowel progressions don't
> > record their point of origin however ;).
> What are the vowel progressions?
I just mean the i-affection and that vowel grading system. In other
words, although when you alter a consonant under one of the relevant
schemes (urú/'eclipsis' or seimhiú/'aspiration') the original phoneme
is still recorded in the orthography (e.g <pagh> to <bpagh> or <phagh>
- this is the goidelic as opposed to the brythonic system), with vowels
this is not so. It would be far too awkward, methinks. You might think
keeping the old consonants is awkward, but it doesn't hurt my eyes
since I've been staring at Irish words, with their weird and wonderful
orthography, for long enough. ;)


> > I guess it's the <y>s (/y/) which give it the Welsh look, not sure where
> > the Xhosa comes from (how would I? I don't know what Xhosa looks like ;)
> > - I'll google for it next time I'm online).
> LOL. Neither do I know what it looks like :-) Still, it has a weird look :-)
Here's some (probably an incompete sentence ;) ) from
http://www.cyberserv.co.za/users/~jako/lang/xho.htm

Yintwan'encinane/ Yintwan'engekhoyo/ Ebamb'izidenge zingafun'ukufunda

Curiously, it is vaguely familiar ;)


> (BTW in the transliteration at least this looks very much like Tolwd :-))
> > You mean, it seems to sound similar?
> I don't know, I am uncomofortable with Irish orthography, so I
> couldn't read it :-)
That's what the X-SAMPA transcription is for ;) But most of it is
"pronounced how it looks". And it's not REALLY written in Irish
orthography, just tiny little bits are inspired :)

> But as a point of visioaesthetics (is this a valid English word?) they
> do look similar - I use a regular stop + h = spirant scheme, so Tolwd
> has lots of bh's, th's, dh'and the like
Ah.. I see; I use that scheme irregularly, e.g. <sh> corresponding to
<s>, but <j> to <z>. I think <z> is a fairly unpleasant looking letter
('visioaesthetically'), and <zh> is just out of line in this lang ;)
(the sound it represents, /Z/ only just squeezes in too...)

Is there anything available about Tolwd on the web I could peek at?


[Explanation of Welsh nasal mutations snipped]

(Does that sound like we were talking about how the Welsh have big
noses?). Thanks for the explanation, Pavel. The only reference I have on
Welsh is something called "A grammar of Middle Welsh" I picked up for a
pound somewhere, and it has repeatedly rebuffed attempts at reading it ;)

> Pavel
Stephen

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