Re: THEORY: Are commands to believe infelicitous?

On Saturday, June 11, 2005, at 05:38 , Tom Chappell wrote:

> Hello, the list.  Hello, Ray; thanks for writing.
You're welcome.

> While I was in the clinic in Oklahoma I couldn't use e-mail.  One
> consequence was that I didn't know about rejected postings.
> The following is one such.  I apologize for any parts that are now
> out-of-date.
> --- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Ray Brown <ray.brown@F...> wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Yes - I am not sure I would stress need so much as "trust"
> > and "faith". I
> > do have a need to make sense, as far as any human can reasonably
> > hope to
> > make sense, of the vast universe in which we find ourselves. I too
> > have a
> > belief in life after death because it is part of a coherent set of
> > beliefs
> > which seem to me to make sense of things.
>
> But many people do not. 
I am aware of that. But it cannot be proved one way or another - we have
to form an assumption on our own experiences, knowledge etc. Some people
have a belief in life after death and some people have a believe that
nothing survives the death & decay of the body. Either way, it is a matter
of trust.

[snip]
> Many people consider this world to be the only world, and all effort
> and resources spent on any other "world" a sinful waste.
That rather depends upon what one means by 'this world'. And any such ban
on teaching about an afterlife would be dictatorial & contrary to freedom
of speech. Indeed, the communist regimes did enforce just such a ban.

> > Absolutely! trust and faith. The words for belief & trust are
> > related in
> > some languages.
>
> Interesting point.  Which languages?  Related how?  Which words?
Greek, for a start.
_pistis_ (noun) = trust [in another person], good faith, trustworthiness,
assurance, confidence.
_pisteuein_ = to trust, rely on, put faith in, believe.

>
> > Quite so. Belief is surely an act of will. I can conclude -
> > possibly
> > mistakenly - that this person is trustworthy & is not lying to me,
> > therefore I will to believe her/him.
>
> Many people (me often among them) disagree that belief is an act of
> will. 
Then you and I simply do not mean the same things by the words 'believe'
and 'belief'.
=============================================

On Saturday, June 11, 2005, at 07:00 , Joseph Bridwell wrote:

>> Many people (me often among them) disagree that belief is an act of
>> will.
>
> So, what do you label my conscious acceptance of reincarnation?
I call it an act of will on your part. But how Tom sees your conscious
acceptance of reincarnation, I do not know.

>> Just as your vision is not subject to your will unless your vision
>> is disordered, so some people would say your belief cannot be
>> subject to your will unless your belief is disordered.
>
> Define "disordered", please. I know the Webster's def. I'd like
> yours, please.
Quite so. I know Tom does not say specifically that he considers your
belief and mine to be disordered, but there does seem to be an implication
that it is so.

>> Look at this screen:  What color do you see it?  Now will it
>> otherwise; Does it change color?
Why should I will the screen to change color!!!!! That is silly.

I can see the color of the screen. That is not a matter of belief - it is
a matter of knowledge.

Now if I were blind, I would not know the color of the screen. I would
have to rely on/ put my trust in some one else. If several people told me
different colors, I would have to decide [act of will] which person I
considered most trustworthy. I would believe that person.

[snip]
>> Some people would say your belief and your will are related as your
>> color vision and your will are.
That doesn't make sense - see above.

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
===============================================
"A mind which thinks at its own expense will always
interfere with language."         J.G. Hamann, 1760

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