Re: Cein and Aelya

--- daniel andreasson <daniel.andreasson@...>
wrote:

> Having read this message through, I must say Aelya
> is very high up on my top list as well. Me like! Me
> like! :)
>
> And I'm guessing it's Aelya that's your number one.
> :)
  Of course! Actually, I'm not entirely sure I can
tell which is in 1st and which is second - let's say
they're tied. Now, if I leave Aelya out (being biased
and such), Cein is #1 right before Tokana.

 < snip mutation stuff>

  I think what I'm going to have to do is go through
and figure out what mutations any given word would've
caused, and then decide why it dropped. The ones that
don't have really good reasons for dropping would
remain.

 Frex, ne 'by means of, with' < Q. -nen would cause
soft mutation (voicing and nasalization). But because
the -n is in there for both singular and plural, it
will probably remain.
  ne beith 'with a hammer'. <Q. petil > A. peith

 Se 'into, on' < Q. -sse(n) would cause soft mutation
in the plural only, and in the singular would cause
lenition (fricativization). It would drop because of
confusion/conflation with the the mutation by numbers,
and would probably end up with only lenition.
  se thae 'into a house' (tae < OI)

  Na 'to' < Q. -nna(r) wouldn't cause any mutation -
it might've started out causing soft mutation in the
singular, but no mutation in the plural, and
confusion/analogy would have lost it.
  na taur 'to a forest'

  This seems like it might work. Try to get rid of
them, and see which one's keep coming back.

> I have no idea. Is the answer "because it says so in
> the
> Grand Master Plan" good enough for you? :)
   No, I mean, do all initial /l/s beome /K/? What are
the details - oh never mind, I'll go look them up in
the GMP myself! Duh!


> Aha. So you have _anta_ >> _and_, but _anda_ >>
> _ann_?
> I'm leaning against _anta_ >> _an(h)_, but I'm still
> not sure.
 Right. Anta > anda, and then both words lost final
short vowel, leaving _and_ for both, which becomes
_ann_. I'm pretty sure that I'll be replacing the noun
'gift' from this conflation with a loan.


> Yes, that's probably a better idea. I like the look
> of _anydh_ tho.
   Well, then, in honor of our mutual enjoyment of our
langs, henceforth, anydh is Aelya for "mutual
excitement over an artistic (intellectual) project"!
Ex of use: N' anydh olymh. /na,niD o:l@v/
           Is app.  with-us(inc)
Or would you prefer a different definition?

<snip Aelya declension>

> How come _cell_ isn't /kel:/?
  Oops - you're right.

 I like the Nordic way
> of having
> a long vowel when followed by a single consonant and
> a long
> consonant (and short vowel) when the consonant is
> double/
> geminate.
  So do I! I love diacritics, but I decided that would
be too difficult, so I'm doing my best to avoid them.
My only problem at the moment is how to indicate long
final vowels (only occur in monosyllables). Maybe you
have some insight on how to do that? I suppose I could
just write doubled vowels (e.g. noo /no:/) but I don't
really like it, aesthetically. I though about using a
final -h for a while (noh /no:/) but I'm not sure I
like that either...

> And why isn't there soft mutation after the plural
> article
> _na_? You only have it for gen.pl. Why is that? I
> see you
> mentioned it a bit further up. Are you thinking
> about having
> spirant mutation for the plural just like Cein? How
> would
> you explain that?
    Mutations are still SOOOOO up in the air, I kinda
just guessed and placed them wherever. Still a lot to
figure out, so I'm playing with various ideas until I
hit on one I like. A more likely declension:

           nom           gen
sing       cal           celh
                         < Q. cal-hi < Q. cala
sg+art     i gal         i gelh
plural     cala          caelh /keK/
           < Q. calar    < calar-hi > calerh > caelh
Pl+art     na cala       na caelh
dual       caul          caul
du+art     na caul       na caul
part       cell          caell /kel:/
           < cala-li     < calar-li > calalli
           > calli       > calel > caell
           > cell

  I hope that comes out readable. I left out all
mutation except for the one I _know_ happens, the soft
after the sg art. Also, I don't know the IPA for the
proper vowel in caell. It's a little more front than
/e/, and a teensy bit rounded.

I don't think spirant mutation
> would be
> as important in Aelya as it is in Cein since you
> mark the
> plural by umlaut, which Cein doesn't.
  Umlaut only shows up in words that derive from Q.
plurals in -i. -a is more common, resulting from -ar.
Umlaut also shows up in the partitive and genitive ( >
-li and -hi respectively).
  Note to that the genitive above is more of an
adjectival formation. Particle (o and va) are used to
denote possession.


> Anyway. I *really* like the series gal ; cala ; cell
> ; caul.
> It looks marvelous.
    Thanks!

> I had completely forgotten about the dual and
> partitive of Quenya! I have to check that out
immediately to see what that will look like in Cein.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

    No prolem! I'm probably as excited as you are to
see what happens!

> A possible sample declension in Cein:
> cen 'elf'
>
>         SG       PL       PART      DUAL
> DEF     i gen    i chen   i gein    i gewn
>        [I dZEn] [i xEn]  [I dZEjn] [I dZEwn]
>
> INDEF   cen      chen     cein      cewn
>        [tSEn]   [xEn]    [tSEjn]   [tSEwn]
  I really like the palatization you've got going.
Palatization only causes umlaut in Aelya.

>
> But what would I do with words like _ffein_ 'white
> cloud'?
> Keep _ffein_ in PART, but have _ffewn_ in DUAL?
    or PART _ffeinn_ < fanya-li > fenli > fendi >
feind? Dual coould be _ffewn_, or, since clouds aren't
a natural pair, maybe use Q. -t, giving C. _ffeinad_?

>And what about a word like _ffym_ 'sleep (noun)',
> then? {y} is [i].Let's see:
        SG       PL       PART      DUAL
DEF     i ffym   i ffym   i ffyim   i ffywn
       [I fim]  [i fim]  [I fijm]  [I fiwn]

> It's the PART that's causing problems. [i] and [ij]
> aren't really different in my mouth. I guess this
> isn't a problem after all. The pronunciation would
> be the same, but the spelling would be different.
  What happens to long I in the GMP? I would think
that _ffym_ or _ffim_ (depending) would be more
likely. What a cool irregular noun you'd end up with!

>Just like _ni_ [nI] 'woman' would end up _ny_ <<
> _nii_ [ni] in the PART, but _niw_ in the DL. And
> _llug_ [KUg] 'dragon' would be _lluig_ in DL and
> _lluwg_ [Ku:g] in PART.
   Looks excellent to me. Except, I think you mean
_lluig_ in *PART* and _lluwg_ in *DUAL*. Still, very
nice!

> I've practically removed all cases in Cein.
> Everyting is taken care of by word order and
> prepositions.
 I'm very close to reaching that point myself -
almost. If I had three cases (nom, gen, and something
else) that would be nice. Possibly an oblique case for
with prepositions. Or maybe just an archaic case, only
used in Middle Aelya and certain formulaic phrases.

> If only Tolkien had been on this list as well.
> Imagine having him in this discussion, too! I
> imagine him having faced the same problems with
> Sindarin, and having to make the same decisions as
> we do with Aelya and Cein.
 I can appreciate his flip-flops on a lot of features
now, that's for sure! I think Aelya has had at least
15 different case systems...

> well, it's nice enough to see the similarities and
> yet the small (and sometimes big) but very
> interesting differences between Aelya and Cein.
 I agree! It would be neat to have our own Ill
Bethisad, if you're not too stuck on the Feanorian
origin of Cein. I'd be the Quenya that moved to
Ireland and then what is *here's* US. I have no idea
what you'd want to do with Cein. At any rate, i have a
bunch of interesting ideas for how Quenya would show
up, if you'd like to hear.

> PS. Is there a website on Aelya somewhere out there?
> I've searched for one, but just got some sporadic
> info on Aelya by Clinton Moreland-Stringham. Was
> that you before changing to Aidan Grey or what? I'm
> a bit confused.
 Yep, that was me before the name change. And that
page is ancient and icky. I've learned Flash and
Dreamweaver since, and have plans for a good webpage,
but there's still some stuff to work out with Aelya
first. So no current page at the moment.

  Aidan


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