Re: LANGUAGE LAWS

At 17:53 18/10/98 +0100, you wrote:
>At 4:26 am +0000 18/10/98, Tommie Powell wrote:
>>Nik Taylor wrote:
>>
>>> Tommie Powell wrote:
>>> > And I don't think
>>> > we should ignore them, when the only natural languages that resemble
>>>computer
>>> > programming languages are languages of Stone Age people.
>>>
>>> I'm having a hard time believing this.  Could you point me to the
>>> research that leads to your characterizing these languages as resembling
>etc.
>
>>Sure, Nik.  Such languages are very easy to spot: Just look for an example
>>of how a
>>language actually says something -- anything -- and if that expression is
>>presented
>>as a one-word sentence, you're almost certainly looking at what I call a
>>Stone Age
>>language.
>
>With respect - rubbish.
>
>What you're looking at is a language with POLYSYNTHETIC structure.  I know
>of NO evidence whatever that such languages are "Stone Age".
>
>Indeed, it has often been observed, rightly IMHO, that although the
>_written_ French pretends that the language is an inflexional one that's
>hardly changed since the 13th century, the modern _spoken_ language is
>essentially polysynthetic.  But I don't observe that French society has
        Is French polysynthetic? What do you mean?

>been moving towards the Stone Age since the 13th century!
>>
>>I found an example on the Internet today, at
>>http://www.mcn.net/~wleman/cheyenne.htm
>>
>>The example is a Cheyenne "word" 18 syllables long, and means "I truly do=
 not
>>pronounce Cheyenne well."  The reason it's a single "word" is that you
>>cannot break
>>its "morphenes" apart and rearrange them to express that thought in any
>>other way.
>
>There is no need to put 'word' or 'morpheme' in double quotes.  18 syllable
>long words are not exactly uncommon and the morphemes _are_ morphemes; it's
>just that most morphemes are bound in polysynthetic languages.
>
>[snip]
>>
>>na=3DI, ohke=3Dregularly, saa=3Dnot (first half), oneseome=3Dtruly,=
 peheve=3Dgood/well,
>>tsehest=3DCheyenne, o'ane=3Dpronounce, he=3Dnot (last half).
>>
>>The first half and last half of "not" ("saa" and "he") are almost
>>certainly in the
>>string of syllables that dictate the type of expression,
>
>First half & second half of 'not' separated by a string of morphemes is
>hardly "Stone Age" or unknown over here in the old world, e.g.
>French:  ne..........pas
>Welsh:   ni(d)/ <initial mutation>........ddim
>Breton:  ne.......ket
>
        Where does it come from in Welsh and Breton? I know that the 'pas'
part of the negation in French (that tends to become the only negation, as
in 'j'aime pas!') comes from the word 'pas' (step).

>[snip]
>>o-type morphene (pronounce) in the third blank.  Then the speaker has the
>>option of
>>inserting the other morphenes where he/she did.
>
>The pro-complements in a verbal string in modern French are all bound
>morphemes and come in a very fixed order; the speaker has the option of
>inserting the bound morphemes in the required places.   That neither makes
>modern French a "Stone Age" language nor 'computer-like'.
>
        Thank you to defend the French (hey! Where's my silex and my=
 pentium?)

>Indeed, many linguists now prefer to treat the constructions found in
>"polysynthetic languages" as a complex of agglutinative & fusional
>structures.
>
>That speakers of mutually incomprehensible polynthetic languages should
>adopt an more isolating structure as they derive a trade pidgin is hardly
>surprising.  Indeed, it'd be very surprised if it were not so.  That
>doesn't mean that the pidgin is "more sloppy" - just has a different
>structure.
>
>Of course, it must be remembered that terms such as 'isolating', 'fusional'
>and 'agglutinative' show typological _tendencies_ rather than describe
>individual languages.  Most natlangs seems to show varying aspects of these
>tendencies.
>
>Personally, I still have little doubt whatever that if I were to be
>transported back 4000 years or more I'd still find a variety of isolating,
>fusional & agglutinatives complexes in a wide variety of 'mixes'.
>
>Ray.
>
>
                                                Christophe Grandsire
                                                |Sela Jemufan Atlinan C.G.

"R=E9sister ou servir"

homepage: http://www.bde.espci.fr/homepage/Christophe.Grandsire/index.html