Re: Leute (was...)
|From:||Christian Thalmann <cinga@...>|
|Date:||Friday, July 23, 2004, 11:02|
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "J. 'Mach' Wust" <j_mach_wust@Y...> wrote:
> >And especially by writers whose dialect doesn't distinguish
> >the two. I personally only have one /i/ phoneme in my
> Of course! Typical ignorance by conditioning of my own dialect.
When I'm writing Züritüütsch, I use my own dialect, not
someone else's, so I'm not ignoring a distinction I should
> >In Bärndütsch, the distinction is clearly phonemic: |si|
> >"they" vs |sy| "to be". The vowels |i e ä a| are all very
> >low [I E a A], so there is plenty of room left in the high
> >front area for another phoneme.
> I note you're using [a, A] rather than the more common [&, a]. Whyis that?
My "ä" is the same as the first part of the diphthong /aj/
in Swiss German, French, English etc, which is always
written as [aj] rather than [&j]. (The latter is how I
would write the Dutch "ij".) It is also identical to the
bright "a" of French as opposed to the dark [A] of the
Accent Fédéral. In fact, the /E/ phoneme of Swiss German
often sounds like [&] to me. My mother tends to pronounce
English /E/ like [&], and doesn't even notice the
difference. The "a" of Züritüütsch is clearly [A] beyond
all doubt (see Accent Fédéral again).
We might just be talking about very different dialects.
I'm from Uster.
> I bet that in a perceptory test, Züritüütsch /e, 2, o/ would turnout to be
> practically the same as Bärndütsch /I, Y, U/ (again that 2-Y merger:).
Yes, the Bärner vowels are exceptionally low. A Bärner
who studied with me even had [&:] for High German /e:/.
> >'Mach', how do you write /9/ in Swiss German?
> Well, with the rounded front vowels, it's the same as with the unrounded
> front vowels which you've described (and with the rounded back vowels,
> too): The 'same conceptual space' is filled in Bärndütsch by a
> discrimination in the higher vowels: /y, Y, 9/, not /y, 2, 9/. The one
> thing I'm not sure about is whether Bärndütsch /9/ would rather be[2_o] or
> even  instead of  or [9_r].
Is the distinction between [y Y] and [u U] phonemic in
Bärndütsch too? I thought only [i I] were distinguished
in writing, anyway.
I wonder how you can consider raising Bärndütsch /9/. If
anything, /Y/ sounds like , not /9/.
> I prefer the more traditional Swiss German orthography as proposed by
> Werner Marti to the more phonemic approach of Eugen Dieth, so Iwrite /y,
> Y, 9/ as <ü, ü, ö>, and eventually mark the first with a dot below (only
> for linguistic purposes). The Dieth orthography, which is morecommon for
> Züritüütsch than Marti, suggests <ü, ö, ö> for /y, 2, 9/ and eventually
> marks the latter with an additional grave accent above. I think there's
> no 'codification' of the more traditional orthography for Züritüütsch.
Would you then suggest we adopt the Bärndütsch system for
Züritüütsch? If you reinterpret ZT /2/ as /Y/ and spell it
"ü", you'd get "Ül"! That can't possibly be din Ërnst...
After all, BD /Y/ and ZT /2/, although they might sound
alike, have different etymologies! Some Bärner write things
like "wörklech", which might make sense phonetically, but
obscure the underlying German roots. ZT shouldn't make the
> Does Züritüütsch have phonemic vowel length in all vowels(Bärndütsch has)?
I haven't checked them all, but I think so.
> _Schwytzer_ and _Schwitzer_ is a Bärndütsch minimal pair for short/i/ vs.
> short /I/!
Ils sont fous, les Bernois! ;o)
-- Christian Thalmann