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Accusative, Dative ?

From:From Http://Members.Aol.Com/Lassailly/Tunuframe.Html <lassailly@...>
Date:Friday, May 28, 1999, 20:58
Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 28/05/99 13:10:17  , Josh a =E9crit :
> Well, Aroven certainly isn't perfect at the moment, in fact it's in a=20
> of > chaos due to this -- seemingly endless -- revision. Every time I think I=
> just about done (I don't mean entirely done with the language, which I=20
> intend to be, I just mean finally bringing the major phonological upheava=
> to a rest) I find something new that just *has* to be done. For instance=20 > for > these last two months I've been working at eliminating end vowel clusters=
> roots still may be CCVVCC or even CCVVCCC but I've been working to engine=
> the disappearance of naked roots in the language -- a word with an end=20
> cluster (except at the end of a word) is either mutated or capped off wit=
> one -VC suffix or another. One and a half years this revision has been > rolling along and I've finally stopped trying to predict where the langua=
> is going to end up, or when it's going to get there! > =20
This is why i find it interesting to visit your site - and each conlanger's = -=20 from time to time.
> Exactly right! That's why I usually refer to my objects by the generic > 1st, 2nd and 3rd rather than accusative, dative, "jurative" (the advantag=
> of these being that the names are more memorable -- good for teaching the > language, as opposed to theorizing about it); they don't have universal > meanings, but depend on the definition of the particular word, or in most > cases that of its class. > =20
The class system seems to be very handy. Charles (who popped up again on thi= s=20 list today (Hi Charles ! :-) told me a bit about that months ago but i think=20 i did not understand quite well how to use it with roles.
> =20 > I admit Aroven's object system is one of the more artificial-tasting=20 > features > of the language.
i don't think it sounds more artificial than the ones of other con- or=20 natlangs, but you definitely planned it with a lot of precision. But I consider it a necessary evil -- it allows the
> unambiguity which the logical demands of the language require, and after=20
> it works well enough even for humdrum speech :-)
IMHO this is something auxlangers may benefit from : planning roles into=20 standard maps as you do is necessary up to 2 or 3 roles. This implies that=20 the mapping of transitive and ditransitive voices are more precisely=20 designed. Even a very simple language like Indonesian makes a difference=20 between final transitive (me-) processive transitive (me-kan), ditransitive=20 transformative (memper-kan) or address (mem-i) because "to do something" or=20 "to have somebody do something" are not the same map as "to make something=20 into something else" or "to apply something on something else". It's very=20 stupid to have different prepositions for the core roles. Some are universal= ,=20 some others are not. It would be better to have one preposition specific to=20 2nd object for transformative, one for address, etc. Japanese "ni" and=20 Indonesian "pada" are good for that. =20
> I love dark cellars (and tunnels, and especially caves; perhaps I should=20 > have > been born a Dwarf :) 'long as I don't have to worry about knocking=20
> wine bottles all over the ground or anything > =20
I love climbing rocks and trees :-)
> =20 > Josh