Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Can realism be retro-fitted? (Benct Philip Jonsson, Feb 5 '07, 15:31)

From:Benct Philip Jonsson <conlang@...>
Date:Monday, February 5, 2007, 18:04
I was in a hurry before and forgot to point out that of course different
dialects can go through slightly different chain shifts and then converge on
the same 'target' system -- except that phonological change doesn't have any
targets. E.g. /i\/ can arise from either u > u\ > i\ or o > 8 > u\ > i\ or an
older @ > i\ when a new @ arises from some source, be it merging short vowels
or /o/ or /e/ escaping from a chain shift, since there is no law that the proto
system need to be some nicely symmetric five or seven vowel system! :-) I see
no reason why i\ can't arise from something like i( > I > I\ > i\ or even a
chain shift e > i > i\. Of course a sound like i\ can easily arise from several
sources in one dialect as illustrated by the *u-*i merger in Welsh, where *u
must have passed through i\ BTW. The pattern how short vowels merge with
'corresponding' longs or as schwa may also differ between dialects or according
to context. I scarequoted 'corresponding' because an [I] may m!
 erge with either [e] or [i], and similarly for [U].

As for the arising of length if there was none earlier there are also different
possibilities. Monophthongization and/or loss of intervocalic consonants is
attractive, especially if you want to combine it with tonogenesis, but
lengthening under stress and/or in open syllables is also common, perhaps with
subsequent loss of unstressed short vowels to create new closed syllables with
long vowels. Possibilities are many.
Sent from my phone using flurry - Get free mobile email and news at:

--- Forwarded Message ---
Date: 2007-02-05 08:24:39.0
From: Conlang Mailing List
Subject: Re: Can realism be retro-fitted? (Benct Philip Jonsson, Feb 5 '07, 15:31)

Herman Miller skrev:
> Benct Philip Jonsson wrote: >> I see now that you may also start from an earlier >> seven-vowel system: >> >> *i *u >> >> *e *o >> >> *E *O >> >> *a >> >> with a following somewhat skewed chain-shift: >> >> *e > *E >> *E > & > a >> *a > Q > O >> *O > o > @ >> *o > u >> *u > i\ >> >> o > @ happens when there are only three heights in >> the front vowels, to remove one height in the back, >> assuming that /E/ /O/ are really mean mid. >> >> As you see there are several possibilities! :-) > > Yes, I think this sort of development might fit better with what I have > in mind. But of course I could come up with many alternatives (and > probably will, before I settle on something). > > >
I'm reviving this thread because two other examples illustrating ways in which a Tirelat-like vowel system could be derived occurred to me today. The first example is Meyer-Lübkes admittedly super-short illustration of the vowel correspondances in Latin loan words in Welsh -- he says they are essentially identical to the changes in inherited words, but probably this is only the basic pattern, with complications in the details: notably there is nothing on what happens to original diphthongs (of which there was only _au_ left in Imperial Latin, but IIANM there were more of them in Celtic). I incorporate info on modern Welsh pronunciation from <>. I also use | and ( to mark long and short original vowels, because of the sometimes annoying lack of an explicit shortness marker in CXS: - i| > i - i( > y /i\, @/ - e| > oe /Oi/, wy /Ui/ - e( > e - u| > i - u( > w /u/ - o| > u /u\/ > /i\/ - o( > o - a| > aw /au/, ô /o:/ - a( > a I remember you saying that _ai_ is the most common Tirelat diphthong. It should not be too hard to derive it from _e|_: the Welsh developments are similar to the French _e| > ei > oi > oe/ui > we > wE > wa_, which shou ...