Re: Need some help with terms: was "rhotic miscellany"

Quoting Sally Caves <scaves@...>:

> I'm quite happy with "apical retroflex" since it stresses the motion of the
> tongue rather than the place of articulation.  I still have trouble with the
> IPA identification of the retroflex with a place in the mouth, but my
> dislike of it doesn't make it go away.
Actually, the status of retroflexes in the IPA chart as a POA is a kind of
"useful fiction". The actual spatial location is the same as for postalveolars,
at least as far as Swedish is concerned; I guess other langs' retroflexes might
be a bit further back or forward. While the position of the contact or closest
approach constant, you should by curling the tongue progressively backwards get
laminal postalveolar, apical postalveolar, what I have called apical retroflex,
and sublaminal retroflex.

The usefulness is due to the fact that, as John said, retroflexness patterns
like a POA rather than a MOA. I suppose it could have been treated like an
modification in the same class as palatalized or aspirated, altho it would be
faintly ridiculous with a such modification that basically only applies to one
POA.

I've heard that the inclusion of a retroflex POA in the IPA chart was influenced
by ancient Indian analyses - retroflexes pattern as a series between
dentals/alveolars and palatals in Sanskrit.

> Perhaps that's why I find what I've heard of Swedish so strange sounding! :)
Perhaps. The intonation is usually more effective at confusing furriners than
the phonetics, IME.

> I'm very fond of the CD called Tra" by Hedningarna [sp?], a Swedish/Finnish
> group.
"Hedningarna" is correct. It means "the Heathens".

                                                         Andreas