Re: Need some help with terms: was "rhotic miscellany"

Marcos> That was me.  I didn't intend to contrast "approximant" with
Marcos> "retroflex"; "approximant" is manner of articulation, while "retroflex"
Marcos> is place of articulation.  I certainly don't have a retroflexion
Marcos> in [r\], and would be surprised to find that most Americans do.

Sally> Alright, I'm doubly confused, Marcos.

I seem to have that effect not infrequently. :\


Sally> PLACE of articulation?  So retroflexion of the tongue would
Sally> require it to touch the palate?

Well, as with the other POAs, not necessarily touch, but at least point
at; how much touching, if any, depends on whether it's an approximant,
fricative, or plosive.  But other than that nit, as I understand it,
that is correct.  Look at an IPA chart - "Retroflex" is a column, along
with the other POAs, in between "Postalveolar" and "Palatal".

All of the places of articulation used in phonetic terminology also
imply something of the manner of articulation.  Dental and Alveolar
sounds are made by touching the teeth/alveolar ridge
- with the tip of the tongue.  Palatal sounds are made by touching the
palate - with the blade of the tongue.    Retroflex sounds are made by
touching the palate - with the tip of the tongue, which must be curled
back to accomplish this.

But I may have hit upon a source of confusion.  I interpret "retroflex"
to require a *complete* backwards curling of the tongue, such that it is
the *bottom* of the tongue tip which makes contact (or nearly so) with
the palate.   That doesn't happen when I pronounce an R; if I start with
my R and then close it up completely, it is still the upper tip of my
tongue touching the roof of my mouth.  But there is definitely some
tongue-curling, and it is definitely more postalveolar than alveloar.

So I am no longer certain that my R is not, in fact, retroflex.  But I
got the impression by reading this list that the retroflex approximant
was a rare sound; in fact, the CXS for it is a trigraph, [r\`].  Which
doesn't jibe with it being the standard American rhotic.

Input from others would be appreciated. :)

-Marcos

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