Re: Mongolian (was: Re: Fluency Wish-List
|From:||BP Jonsson <bpj@...>|
|Date:||Monday, April 17, 2000, 18:00|
At 11:38 17.4.2000 -0400, Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, BP Jonsson wrote:
> > Have to agree on that one. Possibly the good Lama didn't know it. (Or was
> > anti-Chinese!) I'e also read that the linguist involved with Vagintara
> > (the name escapes me) made his own attempt at a modernizing the Mongol
> > script before devising the Cyrillic to save his neck. Never seen it tho.
>I didn't know about that -- or that the same person who did the Vagintara
>script also was responsible for the Cyrillic orthography of Mongol (I had
>heard that Poppe and other Soviet scholars came up with it, with
>Zhamtsarano (?) or Damdinsuren (?).
The name was Samtsuren -- probably the same person as Zhamtsarano. (I got
the info from Poppe, IIRC, and it is only natural if he wanted to downplay
his own rôle.)
> > >Well, someday, someone really should adopt it for a conlang -- some little
> > >minority nationality in Yunnan/Sichuan that kept some traditions going
> > >from the Yuan dynasty?
> > Boudewijn already has! I like the script, but not the way Mongol is
> > rendered into it.
>Really? What language is that? I must have missed it, but I'd love to
>hear about it!
Well, check out his page about Charyan script, and you'll see! It's a
twist to it...
>given that 15th-ct. Korea was fairly cut off from dealings with the
>Chinese court, while it's known to have continued training people in
>Mongolian and 'phags-pa script up through the end of the 14th ct. (IIRC).
I didn't know that!
> > have you BTW seen Sanskrit written in Hangyl? That's real weird. If
> > Sanskrit in East Asia sounded anything like it ought to -- and
> > transcriptions into Kana suggest it did -- then both Chinese and Korean
> > sounded very different from now!
>No doubt :) On the other hand, Sanskrit definitely could get pretty
>warped as it was adopted into some of those northernmost languages (e.g.,
>Skt punya -> Mongol buyan)
Or padma -> pE:ma, vajra -> bendzire in demotic Tibetan. Anyway the
Koreans seem to be consistently using _m_ for _v_ and _n_ for _l_ and _r_,
and the old Hangyl character looking like a Greek Delta for _ñ_, while _mb_
and _nd_ are used for the Sanskrit plain nasals as well as Sanskrit _mb_,
_nd_. I know the Chinese rime tables seem to have used a similar
rendering, but given the relatively high quality of contemporary documents
written in Siddham in both Korea and japan it is really strange!
> > Thing is I got a sadhana print where someone has written in the Sanskrit
> > names (I think) of the deities in Mongolian script. There are still some I
> > haven't been able to identify.
>Well, if you can get me an image of it, I'd enjoy giving it a try -- I can
>also see if Jim Bosson can make any sense out of it, since he's here right
I tried to scan some pages of the book. Since it is already a photocopy of
a not-to-good print the results are measly. I can transcribe the Tibetan
names and what I think the Mongolian spellings look like, tho.
B.Philip Jonsson <mailto:bpj@...>email@example.com
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