Re: tonal languages

>Florian writes:
>
>>so here are the basic tones of shanghainese
>>1st : long 53
>>2nd : long 34
>>3rd : long 13
>>4th : short 55
>>5th : short 22
>
>I'm with you here.
>
>>the entering word of a compound can get a final glotal stop(as
>>explained later) noted "?"
>
>Only tones 4 and 5 (yang qu and yang ru, respectively) can have a
>final glottal stop.
>
>>the initials of the first tone (53) and 2nd (34) are voiceless sounds
>
>Yep.
>
>>the initials of the 3rd tone (13) are all voiced sound exept nasals
>>sounds and the lateral "l".
>
>See my last post on this.
>
>>The tone will change when two or more words are pronouced in series.
>>The tone change in serial pronounciation can be divided in two
>>groups. the extensively used form, and the infrequently used form.
>
>Okay, you're beginning to lose me here......
>
>>The characteristics of the exensively used form are: in a serialy
>>read word group, the first word is generaly not prounouced in
>>original tone, but in a fixed tone. for example: the tone 53 is
>>transformed into 44, 34 into 44, 13 into 33,
>
>13 into 22, using your notation, no?
>
>>55 into 44 and 22 into 11. the tone change of the first word affects
>>the tone of the following words which also lose original tone, in
>>despite of rising and falling tone. the fixed form of the tone
>>change is formed by combining the first word with the following
>>words. according to the various tones of the first word, the tones
>>for two-word group, three-word group, .., five word group tend to be
>>changed. general rule are shown in the following table:
>>
>>1sr word'stone | two words |   3       |  4           | 5
>>                |           |           |              |
>>53             |  55 21    | 55 33 21  | 55 33 33 21  | 55 33 33 33 21
>>                |           |           |              |
>>34             |  33 44    | 33 55 21  | 33 55 33 21  | 33 55 33 33 21
>>                |           |           |              |
>>13             |  22 44    | 22 55 21  | 22 55 33 21  | 22 55 33 33 21
>>                |           |           |              |
>>55             |  33? 44   | 33 55 21  | 33? 55 33 21 | 33? 55 33 33 21
>>                |           |           |              |
>>22             |  11? 23   | 11? 22 33 | 11? 22 22 23 | 22? 55 33 33 21
>>                                          22? 55 33 21
>>
>>example: "shanghai" is read in series and zan13 he34 becomes : zan22he44
>>"shanghai dialect" zan13 he34 he13 ho13 becomes zan22he55he33ho21
>
>Ah, I had to read this several times but I now get it and concur. I
>would only add that Shanghainese has no /n/ vs. /N/ distinction the
>way Mandarin does so "zang22he44" might be more intuitive for the
>uninitiated. Four syllable units can break into a 2+2  or 3+1
>syllable sandhi pattern; five into a 3+2 or 2+3 sandhi pattern,
>depending on the morphemes involved.
>
>>the infrequently used form of serial change only suits specified
>>word groups. the usage is very limited.
>
>Yeah, this is where I get lost. Could you give a couple of examples to clarify?
I am sorry of what is not very clear, but unfortunately, i am not explain much
more. What i wrote was not my own, but just a copy of what i found interesting
in my book, plus some rephrasing, to make the text "stand alone". And i haven't
started actively learning the language, so my help will be poor. As for the
"infrequently used form", i guess it refers to exceptions, the few words not
following the regular sandhi, and having tone paterns of their own.
And if something is wrong in the details of the sandhi given above, i am not the
one to correct it, since this text is my only source of information about the
tones in this language.

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