Re: Copula

Jim Henry wrote:
> On 3/19/07, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
>
>> What I should have stated more clearly is that if a verb is transitive,
>> then we must be able to have a passive form in which the direct object
>> of the active verb is the subject of the passive form. it does not mean,
>> of course, that other verbs may not in a particular also have a passive
>> construction.
>
>
> ...If the language has a passive voice at all, that is?
> If a language has no active/passive voice marking,
Does such a natlang actually exist among nominative-accusative
languages? (Obviously ergative languages behave differently - and, of
course, with conlangs anything is possible).

> how would you distinguish a transitive verb
> from an intransitive verb that often or always has
> a complement?
I would need to know something about the syntax and morphology of the
language in order to answer. As an earlier mail mine showed, the concept
'direct object' is to a great extent language specific. For example in
English the object of 'to favor' is a direct object:
He favors his sons ~ His sons are favored (by him)

But in Latin the verb _favere_ is _intransitive_ - it's object is
regarded as indirect and is expressed in the dative and *cannot be the
subject of a passive*, e.g.
Active: filiis [dat.] favet.
Passive: filiis [dat.] favetur (ab illo)
(The Latin passive has an impersonal verb)

Therefore the question cannot be answered unless the language is known.
Can you give some actual examples?

==================================
  Carsten Becker wrote:
[snip]
>
>   French: C'est moi. (< *Ce est moi)
>           3sg.NOM-be.3sg 1sg.ACC
>           "It's me"
No, no, no!

What about these?
C'est lui = "It's him"
C'est elle = It's her"

You surely do not construe _lui_ and _elle_ as accusatives!!!

The accusative (and dative) of 'je' is 'me'. If French used the
accusative in this construction then it would be *"Ce m'est" - cf.
Il me suit - he follows me.
Elle m'aime - She loves me
etc etc etc

'je' and 'me' are conjunctive pronouns as they may be used only when
forming part of the the verbal phrase. Only the conjunctive pronouns may
show different forms for subject & object (and in the case of the 3rd
person pronouns, the direct object [acc.] is distinguished from the
indirect object [dat.]e.g. il, le, lui).

'moi' is a _disjunctive_ pronoun - these are invariable and are _not_
marked for case. The fact that French is ultimately derived from the
Latin accusative-ablative [me:] is irrelevant. The disjunctive pronouns
show a variety of formations, e.g. _lui_ (C'est lui) happens to be
identical with the conjunctive dative (cf. Je le lui donne - I'm giving
it to him), and _elle_ (C'est elle) happens to be identical with the
disjunctive subject form (e.g. Elle m'aime).


--
Ray
==================================
ray@carolandray.plus.com
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
TRADUTTORE TRADITORE

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