Re: A gripping language, and a question about suprasegmental analysis (WAS: re: conlanging partners)

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2008, Sai Emrys wrote:
>> Another example from ASL is hand dominance. E.g. HELP is dominant hand
>> /A/ resting on base /B/
Slight correction: /A/ or /10/, in this case behaving allophonically
though they are sometimes distinctive.

> A possible ambiguity arises here - would you spek this language
> with "just anyone", or only with those who know which of your hands
> is dominant?  Still, that could be just part of saying "hallo" - "Hi, my
> name is Sai of the Strong Right Hand".
It typically is. "Hello" is the standard north American wave outward
from dominant brow w/ dominant hand. So you already know. (Of course,
in ASL', it could be an *ironic* hello.... :p)

>> * for me (though not for Alex), fourth and fifth finger action is not
>> entirely seperable (so there will be noise between the two)
>
> Would be an issue for most "speakers".  Anyone learning
> piano knows how hard they have to work on producing
> completely independent motion of the last three fingers;
> some never achieve it.
Actually, I'm an ex-semiprofessional pianist. Fifteen years of
practice etc. I can do trills with my outer three fingers (though not
nearly as well as w/ inner three), do multiple voicing etc.

The thing is that piano has trained me enough that that extra movement
isn't enough to hit a key. It is however enough to cause some pressure
sensation, which can be confusing for the 'listener' in grip-language.

>> * we have different grip dominance preference (interlace your fingers
>> together - which way do you prefer? I like my right thumb dominant, he
>> likes left), so one of us is always a bit awkward with a grip
>
> Correlates (I believe) with handedness - dominant hand has
> a dominant thumb.
FWIW, we're both right handed.

> Did you ever find yourself having to negotiate a hand grip?
> It can be quite funny (to watch!) and the battle can go on for
> thirty seconds or more until it's settled.
*laugh* Sometimes. We trade off if need be. :-P We're not really the
battling sort.

>> * thumb disposition and grip both significantly affect the motions one
>> can do, and the perception of them; one issue e.g. is whether to code
>> recipient xor presser finger as phonological
> Clarity of utterance is important - I suggest a light grip
> might work better than a tight one.
Of course; that's the default.

> Recipient knows much better, without looking, which
> of his fingers was pressed.  Consider this grip lang as
> an adjunct lang for those with vision problems - you'd
> want to de-emphasize sight as thoroughly as possible.
Actually, I suggest you try this with someone. Sometimes you can tell
which finger is pressed, sometimes which finger pressed it.

Also, given my parameters, the visual channel is intended to be
essentially nil for this.

>> Suggestions?
>
> Yep, here's one - consider the recipient's hand as a keyboard,
> more like a piano than a QWERTY computer keyboard.  Then
> each knuckle or phalange pressed could represent a sound,
> and each combination of knuckles and phalanges could represent
> a word.
Sounds like court stenographer typewriter.



On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen <arj@...> wrote:
> I think the idea is that it would be difficult to keep inconspicuous. I mean,
> holding hands is all well and good, but if said hands are moving or twitching
> visibly, people are apt to think that you're not quite sane, or at least a
> little bit nervous.
Actually, that's not the case. The amount of movement needed to make
well perceived pressure is very slight. (This is also why I would
intend grip & thumb disposition to be rarely used quasi-'phonemes'.)