Re: Numerals in Maggel (Was: Re: Judajca)

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 10:52:06AM +0200, Christophe Grandsire wrote:
> En réponse à Barry Garcia <barry_garcia@...>:
>
> >
> > Numerals are one of the easier parts of conlanging to do.
Not in my case :-) It took me a while to come up with the numbering system
of the Ebisedi.

[snip]
> In Maggel there are no "cardinal" numbers opposed to "ordinal" ones. But there
> are "declarative" numbers (used when referring to the number itself, like in a
> phone number)
Cool. Ebisedian also distinguishes between the *quantity* a number
represents, and the numerical *entity* itself. For example:

        _y'i_   "zero", "none";
        _ivei'_ the mathematical entity called "zero".

        _kei'_  "one" (i.e., one of something)
        _ikei'_ "oneness", or the mathematical entity called "one".

        _3jei'_ "two" -- notice this is inflected as a plural because it
                represents a plural quantity
        _ijei'_ the mathematical entity, "two". This is inflected as a
                *singular*, because it is a single mathematical entity.

>, "combined" numbers (which are equivalent to cardinals, ordinals
> and multiplicative numbers),
Ebisedian cardinals and ordinals, although they are distinguished, appear
as compound words. For example:
        _pii'z3di_      "man"
        _pii'z3dokei'_  "one man"
        _keopii'z3di_   "the first man"

> "distributive" numbers (meaning "one by one", "two
> by two" or "each one", "each two"...)
Now this is a very cool idea. I've been thinking about this aspect of the
Ebisedian grammar recently: how to express "each other", "one by one",
"each", "every one of", etc.. So far, I have _zoro_, a nominal conjunction
used to mean "every". For example:
        pii'z3di zoro pii'z3di  "each and every man"

Literally, _zoro_ is a contraction of _zo oro_, "and the next". So, a
construction like the above literally means "a man and the next man".
(This is sorta stolen/borrowed from the colloquial expression "every man
and his neighbour".)

I should think of a way to express your "distributive" concept here. Hmm,
actually, now that I think of it, maybe something like the following would
do it:
        jei' zoro jei'  "two by two" (lit. "two and the next two")

So I can, for example, say:
        3mir33'nojei zoro 3mir33'nojei.
        "Two children by two children."

What do people think of this new idea? ;-)

[snip]
> 400: gdhmabgis [dvE:Iz] (remember that one ;))) )
Yes, well remembered. :-)

Anyway, I believe it's my turn to show off Ebisedian numbers. :-) They are
grouped into "quantities" and "entities" as described above.

        quantity                entity
0       y'i     ["?y?i]         ivei'   [?iB&"?i]
1       kei'    [k&"?i]         ikei'   [?ik&"?i]
2       3jei'   [?@\dZ&"?i]     ijei'   [?idZ&"?i]
3       3rei'   [?@\r`&"?i]     irei'   [?ir`&"?i]
4       3dei'   [?@\d&"?i]      idei'   [?id&"?i]
5       3Pei'   [?@\p_h&"?i]    iPei'   [?ip_h&"?i]
6       3sei'   [?@\s&"?i]      isei'   [?is&"?i]
7       3Tei'   [?@\t_h&"?i]    iTei'   [?it_h&"?i]
8       3Cei'   [?@\tS_h&"?i]   iCei'   [?itS_h&"?i]
9       3Kee'i  [?@\"k_h&:?i]   iKee'i  [?i"k_h&:?i]

Note that one does not count above 9 in Ebisedian in this way, as I've
mentioned in a post on Ebisedian numbers some time ago. Instead, one
counts by "groups", or "triads", as I like to call them:
        kekrei'         3
        jekrei'         9
        rekrei'         27
        dekrei'         81
        Pekrei'         243
        sekrei'         729
        ... etc.

These are collective nouns (which is why they are inflected as singulars)
representing different levels of "granularity" that one might want to
count at. They are combined with the basic numbers 1--9 (above) to form
higher quantity nouns. For example:
        kekrekei'       = "one of _kekrei'_" = 9
        3kekrejei'      = "two of _kekrei'_" = 18
        3kekrerei'      = 27
        3kekredei'      = 36
        3kekrePei'      = 45
        ... etc.

The largest triad in this series is _Ke'kekrei_ ["k_h&k&kr&?i], which has
a value of 3^9 = 19683. The largest multiple of this triad is, obviously,
_KeekreKee'i_ [k_h&:kr&"k_h&:?i], which has a value of 177147.

For counting above this, a mathematical word, _keTraa'i_, is slowly being
absorbed into everyday conversation. It has a base value equal to
_Ke'kekrei_, 19683; but it can be multiplied not only by the basic numbers
1-9, but also multiples of triads. So, for example, you can say:
        _3keTraa'Pekrejei'_ [?@\k&"t_hr`a:p_h&kr&dZ&?i]

which has a value of 9,565,938, which, for common people, as practical the
same as 10 million.

(There are also higher "large triads", like _jeTraa'i_, etc., but those
are only ever used by mathematicians. For example, _sekreTraa'i_ has a
base value of 3^729, way beyond the comprehension of the lay people.)

But of course, we cannot forget:
        Pe'rokrei ["p_h&r`okr&?i]
which has a base value of infinity. To mathematicians, that is. It is used
by lay people to refer to large numbers beyond their ability to count, and
is best understood to mean "countlessly many".

[snip]
> Note also that for values just preceeding an integer amount of twenties or 400,
> you can name them substractively, like for 17, 18 and 19. So instead of
> |snaodadba oatdeh| ['zna:d@dv ad'deI] for 38, you can simply say |snaodasnao|
> ['zna:d@zna:].
Good idea. I'm thinking of adding subtractives to Ebisedian as well
(mainly out of convenience, although there is a semantic reason for it).
Currently, Ebisedian has additives. For example:
        _3kekrere3kei'_ = 10
        Literally, "three three's and one", i.e., 3*3 + 1.


T

--
It is of the new things that men tire -- of fashions and proposals and
improvements and change. It is the old things that startle and intoxicate. It
is the old things that are young. -- G.K. Chesterton

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