Re: Naming days of the week and months of the year????

At 6:42 pm -0400 24/4/01, Nik Taylor wrote:
>Roger Mills wrote:
>> Yes, so our calendars would have us believe.  But we all know that Monday
>> (aargh) is the first day.
>
>Monday's the second day for me.
..and for me.

>> Just numbering the days 1-7 not a good solution.  Millions of Moslems, Jews
>> and some Christians hold Saturday, most Christians Sunday, as the end of the
>> week.
>
>Big deal.  If someone's so touchy that they'd get offended at the wrong
>day being called first, then there'd be no way to satisfy them.
The problem, I think, is not so much that a minority of people will get
upset about where a week begins and ends; it is rather than those cultures
that do number the days do not all use the same system.

The seven-day week originated in the Near/Middle East and came to Europe
with Christianity.  When the system first came into the Roman world the
days were named after the seven "planets" as Nick said, i,e, staring from
Sunday: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn.  This is still
preserved in the modern Welsh day names: Sul, Llun, Mawrth, Mercher, Iau,
Gwener, Sadwrn.

But early on Saturday got called _Sabbatum_ or _Sambatum_ "Sabbath", and
Saunday was the Lord's day "Dies Dominica" or "Dies Dominicus" (gender of
_dies_ varied  :)   This was in imitation of Christian Greek usage which
was established before the New Testaments were written, where we find
Saturday is _Sabbaton_ and Sunday is _(He:mera) Kyriake:_; also we find
that Friday is called _Paraskeue:_ (Preparation [it is the Jewish day of
preparation for the Sabbath]).  These names are used, in the modern Greek
forms, till the present day by the Greeks.

The modern Romance langs, except Portuguese, preserve this mixed
"Judaeo-Christian weekend" and "planetary weekday" system:
FRENCH     SPANISH    ITALIAN    ROMANIAN
dimanche   domingo    domenica   duminec@  [@ = a-breve]
lundi      lunes      lunedì     luni
mardi      martes     martedì    mart,i
mercredi   miércoles  mercoledì  mercuri
jeudi      jueves     giovedì    joi
vendredi   viernes    venerdì    vineri
samedi     sàbado     sabato     s@mb@t@

French Sunday is from _dominica_ which would've become *domenche, but the
initial syllable has been influenced by the _di_ morpheme; and _samedi_ is
ultimately derived from _sambati dies_ (day of the Sabbath).

But the early Church was none too keen on the "planetary weekdays" because
of the obvious association with the pagan deities that ruled each planet
and, indeed, after whom the planets were named.  They just numbered the
other days.  This has always been the case in Greek, and the Portuguese
have also adopted a similar system, viz.
MOD. GREEK                   PORTUGUESE
Kyriakí     (Lord's Day)       domingo
Deftéra     (second [day])     segunda (feira)
Tríti       (third)            terça
Tetárti     (fourth)           quarta
Pémpti      (fifth)            quinta
Paraskeví  (preparation/sixth) sexta
Sávvato     (Sabbath)          sabado

The Arabs also number their days similarly, calling Sunday the 1st day and
Saturday is called the Sabbath.  Their only modificatuion is to rename
Friday as the "Assembly (day)" - when the faithful assemble in their local
mosque for midday prayers.

Ok, then, let's number them; it's simple and fairly inoffensive.  The
trouble is that the western calendar spread around the world to cultures
where the Judaeo-Arabo-Christian culture was foreign.  All they could see,
was that Monday was the day people starting working again; thus a different
numbering system was developed; cf.
MALAY                            CHINESE
hari satu   (day 1 [Mon.])       xin1qi1yi1
hari dua    (day 2 [Tues.])      xin1qi1er2
hari tiga   (day 3 [Wed.])       xin1qi1san1
hari empat  (day 4 [Thur.])      xin1qi1si2
hari lima   (day 5 [Fri.])       xin1qi1wu3
hari enam   (day 6 [Sat.])       xin1qi1liu2
hari minggu ('day week' [Sun.])  xinq1qi1ri2

_minggu_ is from Portuguese _domingo_ and has now come to designate the
wwwk itself; "a week" is _sata minggu_.  In Chinese _xin1qi1_ means 'week';
so Sunday is the "week's say", and Monday is 'week(day)1' etc.

Just to add to the fun, we find something similar in Swahili in that the
rest day, i.e. Friday (Muslim day of prayer) was obviously appreciated, amd
they started numbering the days from Saturday, which became 'day 1'!
Interestingly, Thursday, the eve of the rest-day, kept its Arabic name
which is meaningless in Swahili, but derives from the Arabic word for 5!
Thus:
Ijumaa (<-- Arabic: _juma:_) = Friday
Jumamosi (weekday 1)         = Saturday
Jumapili (weekday 2)         = Sunday
Jumatatu (weekday 3)         = Monday
Jumanne  (weekday 4)         = Tuesday
Jumatano (weekday 5)         = Wednesday
Alhamisi (<-- Arabic = the 5th) = Thursday

So today, Wednesday, is called numbered by some as day 4, others as day 3
and yet others as day 5!

>I
>consider Sunday first, but it's not like I couldn't get used to calling
>it the seventh day!
Yes, but you don't normally name your weekdays by numbers.  It would be
quite confusing if you were brought up in one number system and then found
yourself in another; it is, it seems to me, just asking for mistakes to be
made.

The ISO, of course, had to lay down a standard and decreed that Monday was
the 1st day if the week and Sunday, after being the 1st for a few
millennia, should now take its turn at being the last.  In I971 Britain
officially adopted the ISO standard - tho I do not recall the people of
Britain consulted and I'm sure the majority of my fellow countrymen are
still not aware of this.  I believe, indeed, that all the EU contries have
adopted this convention which is why our calenders show weeks running from
Mon. to Sun., whereas our trans-Atlantic cousins still adhere to the older
system with calendars showings weeks, as they used to in Britain when I was
young, running from Sun. to Sat.

All very confusing.  IMO an auxlang the numbers the days of the week will
obviously confuse many and upset some - not what auxlangs are designed to
do, I think.

If the days are named or designated in some manner like the Japanese
system, then there is no numbering confusion and people can adhere to their
own local system for starting & ending the week.

[snip]
>
>> At least here we could go 1-12 without offending anyone except those who
>> persist in following the lunar calendar.......
>
>But these names would be for the Gregorian calendar ... so what's the
>problem with lunar calendars?
But in my experience, those who do so used both their own lunar calendar
and the modern Gregorian Calendar without any problem.  Many of my students
are Muslims and they have no problem knowing when Rammadan comes around; my
Chinese students never miss out on the lunar New Year etc.  We just number
the months of the Gregorian Calendar; and those who use lunar calendars
will do as they do at present, i.e. use their own lunar-month names - no
problems!

In 'briefscript' the months will just be numbered 1..12; the days will be
numbered 1..28, 1..29, 1..30 or 1..31, depending upon the month (until such
time - if ever- the calendar is tidied up a bit more :)

The seven days of the week will be designated in some system similar to the
Japanese one - unless I can think of something better :)
One thing is certain - they will not have color names for reasons some have
already mentioned.

Ray.

=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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