Re: Bostonites. *ZAP*

"Into the dragon's mouth marched the three hundred..."

Indeed.

"Whoa, whoa, whoa! This isn't what Tom suggested! He never said we should
get rid of rules altogether; he was referring to *prescriptive* rules. The
capability for language is something that's hard-wired into humans' brains;
it's really quite impossible for us to well-intentionedly use it incorrectly."

Why does everyone insist on telling me the SAME thing over and over again?
I know this. I studied linguistics. That is NOT NOT NOT what this is about.
I'm starting to get crabby, here.

"The language of a hick who says, "I ain't got no bread in the house" is in
no way inferior to that of a nobleman who uses perfect prescriptive grammar."

Read my damn posts before you vomit up this crap over and over again. I did
not DID NOT insist anything of the sort. Didn't say it. Nope. Don't believe
it. Don't feel that way. Have REPEATEDLY protested against being seen as
this person. Am not a newbie, a linguistic-illiterate, or a moron. I said
OVER and OVER again the part you agreed with. And then I said that it is
stupid to make this argument over and over again, for many reasons. I am
not talking about this. I did not bring anything of the sort up. I am
talking about choices. I did not speak of inferiority of anyone. I did not
say that speakers who deliberately tried to make words longer to make
themselves feel smarter were inferior or claimed they were wrong on some
ultimate scale. I said I thought they sounded like idiots - it drives me up
the wall to see people always clawing to be king of the hill, and to then
try to SOUND important - like people who can use English so fluently they
are clearly masters of it - and do this in error!

"For that's what the grammar we learn in school is: by the time our
teachers are yelling at us about bad linguistic habits, we're already
experts, masters of our tongue--in school we just learn arbitrary rules set
out by British nincompoops in the 18th century who thought that English
would be more elegant if we pretended it was Latin."

OK, is everyone through NOT reading my posts and NOT listening to me? Have
we all got it out of our systems? Damnit, people, pay attention: I DO NOT
DISPROVE OF NONSTANDARD GRAMMAR, WORD USAGE, OR NEOLOGISMS. I have said
this a thousand times now, and no-one understands a word I have said. It's
pissing me off! Pay attention! No kidding, I learned this when I was in
fourth grade. Doesn't relate at all to the issue of standardised grammar.
Not relative where it came from.

"I'm all for teaching people a standard and demanding that it be observed
in writing: we need that in our society, and in that context it's fine to
rant about bad usage, &c.; what I object to is the idea that those who
can't or don't adhere to prescriptive rules are somehow "wrong.""

I never said this. I do not, did not, and never will believe in
prescriptive grammar. I did not claim to. My emails have, all in total,
been about long words which have broken the rules of the standard in order
to give the speaker prestige because s/he can use the standard. END OF
STORY. That's it. I said many times that I was ranting about bad usage and
the like in that context only; I never claimed it was morally, ethically,
or scientifically wrong, I said it offended me and probably everyone else
thinks I'm a prig now and they would in the future, but still it irritated
me. OK? Everyone got it now?

"As to the idea that people who don't obey those prescriptive rules have no
"pride" in their tongue...that doesn't even bear discussion. I'm hoping you
weren't serious."

I'm not serious, I'm really annoyed now. I said that language is a shared
set of rules, and we prize some rules over others - the standard. A
standard can be common to a small or a large set of people, but that
language rules are contributed to by speakers. Should I therefore take
offense at a misuse of a standard structure, it is entirely within my
rights to desire that people adhere to a standard I prefer - everyone has a
preferred speech pattern and word choices, and whether we say it or know
it, we are choosing to follow certain rules of speech. Linguist or not, we
are all linguistic imperialists, pushing our vision of correct speech on
others by our very words. I think I have a remarkably liberal view of
modern English, despite my schooling, but fake long words bug me. Is that
so wrong? Apparently so.

 And yes, I have pride in the language skills I have, and I think that
persons who abuse the common rules of speech in failed attempts to inflate
their social standing are annoying. ANNOYING. There. Is that the problem,
that as a linguist, I'm not allowed to have personal preferences about the
languages I speak? Well, tough. I do. All of us do. We choose the rules of
speech we follow to some concious degree. I happen to find certain attempts
irritating, and I resent the attitudes I have been receiving. Somehow, I am
'lesser,' 'less-educated." Maybe I'm just honest about my preferences - we
ALL have them, like it or not.

Also, I think it is entirely within our interests as speakers to have a
standard as a practical matter. I think I am within my rights to complain
when people use words like "transportate." I am allowed to bitch, and if
anywhere is in context, it is among linguists. I wish people would READ
what I said before talking to me like I am a child.

"But the basic fact is that the real rules of language don't *need* to be
taught; we can prove that by the tens of thousands of years that human
language existed before writing and a formal understanding of grammar
developed. Except, of course, insofar as we require a standard; in this
capacity I'm all for it...but we need to have the awareness that it is just
that."

Puh-lease. Are you listening to what I say? I'm not talking about the
ultimate correctness of all speech. I'm talking about the accepted rules of
standard English. I'm talking about how I don't like how some people are
choosing to arbitrarily change the rules of standard English to make them
look more important. I know all that other stuff, and it is not relevant to
what I like and dislike. I have said over and over that I am not interested
in persecuting people for allegedly improper grammar, word-usage, or
neologisms; I love to play with speech. But since no-one reads my messages
carefully, I'm wasting my breath.

"Peace, yes?"

As soon as you stop talking down to me after not reading what I wrote!

BB

*********
"You know what I blame this on the breakdown of? Society!!"
        - Moe, "The Simpsons"

Everyone thinks I'm psychotic, except for my friends deep inside the earth.

Only 282 shopping days left before the end of the world.

James E Johnson, 1920-1999