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Re: Spanish ll in different dialects

From:I. K. Peylough <ikpeylough@...>
Date:Sunday, August 29, 2004, 8:00
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:08:40 -0400, Roger Mills <rfmilly@...> wrote:

>Mark P. Line (and others) have written. > >> Philip Newton said: >> > From: David Peterson <thatbluecat@...> >> > [on Mexican |ll|] >> >> I've only ever heard a mixture between >> >> [j], [Z] and [dZ]. Both "ll" and "y" get pronounced this way >> > >> > A friend of mine, a Japanese who had spent a year or two on Mexico and >> > picked up a little Spanish, gave me the phrase [dZo mE dZamo <name>], >> > which confused me since I could imagine [dZ] for |ll| but had never >> > heard of any pronunciation for |y| but [j]. Yet she insisted that that >> > was the pronunciation she had learned there.
A well known fact: LL and Y have the same pronunciation throughout American Spanish, whatever that pronunciation is.
>> I've heard Cubans use [dZ] for |y| in their *English* and always assumed >> it was because the do the same in their variety of Spanish. >> >I suspect a range from [j] > [j\] > [Z] > [dZ] (progressively more closure) >is permissible in the Spanish speaking world. I'm a little suspicious of
>[dZ], however-- perhaps we Americans are hearing their somewhat frictional >[j\] as our more familiar affricate (this might also apply to the Japanese >speaker someone mentioned)-- or maybe the Spanish speaker thinks it sounds >more "American" to use [dZ]. I heard [Z] a lot in Argentina, and >occasionally [dZ] which I attributed to the Italian background of 50% of
>population. (That was 30 some years ago; Pablo Flores usually transcribed >"ll, y" as [S]. Perhaps there's some on-going change.
The sound is not quite the same as English [dZ]. Alveopalatal perhaps? Hard to tell, because it's also pronounced more "crisply". I saw a map of the distribution of ll/y phones somewhere that would be about 50 years old now. It seems that the affricate was mainly in Argentina, and everybody used a [j] with just a little friction. Now the stronger sounds seem to be widespread. The current stereotype of Argentine speech uses [Z], but I wouldn't be surprised is some have shifted to [S] (which is used elsewhere sporadically for ch). I once heard a recent arrival from Italy speak Spanish. She sounded just like the Argentines I'd heard!
>A really long time ago, there was a comedian on TV who went by the name
Bill Dana
>José Jimenez-- I don't think he was actually Hispanic-- and part of his
>was to pronounce Engl. y as j, and almost every routine included something >like-- >--Well, José, what were you doing in New Haven? >--I went to "Jail" >and so on............. >(In these PC times, I doubt that an Anglo could get by with parodying the >accent. Mr. Leguizamo can do it, but he's entitled.)