Re: definite/indefinite articles

On Mon, Mar 31, 2003 at 02:03:30PM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "H. S. Teoh" <hsteoh@...>
[snip]
> > That's like saying "Mr.-No-Kasi".
>
> Righto!  I love infixations.  Teonaht is replete with them.  Htindelrem,
> "sing," with gerundive volitional suffix.  "She is singing," or she is
> "with" singing, a kind of progressive:  bom htindelrem ly.  "with sing-ing
> she."  Or: rev bom htindel ly:  -ing with sing she."   This gets shortened
> in colloquial to "bom htindel ly."  She is singing.
Very nice. Ebisedian verbs are unfortunately not that interesting.
(Although one might argue that it's already interesting enough for every
verb to have potentially 27 forms with curious shades of meaning.)

> > Here's an example of how this is used:
> >         tww'ma eb0'   t3,       a'ne `ysal3'    uro  juli'r?    t3m3.
> >         speak  I(org) thus(cvy) ?    Sally(cvy) this house(loc) -
> >         "I asked, is Sally in this house?"
> >
> >         taw'ma jhit0'   t3,       my'sal3           uu'ri.    t3m3.
> >         answer she(org) thus(cvy) No-Sally(nul,cvy) here(loc) -
> >         "She answered, No-Sally is here." I.e., "no she's not here", or
> >         "there's no Sally here."
>
> I might steal this!  A high compliment in the CONLANG world.
I'm flattered. :-)

> Teonaht has a nullar particle vo-/vy- that usually prefixes verbs and
> adjectives, but not normally nouns.  It also negates through the older,
> more "elegant" _vera_, which follows verbs, contrary to the usual
> position of adverbs:  Sally htindel vera, "Sally sings not," but with
> zero copula: Harym vera Sally."  Here not Sally (is).
In Ebisedian, you'd have several different shades of meaning possible:

1)      `ymy's3l0 tww'l3re.     [Hys@\"lA "t8:l@\r`&]
        no-Sally  sings  --> "None-of-Sally sings."

2)      `ys3l0' tww'l3re my'tal3r3.     [Hys@\'lA "t8:l@\r`& "mytal@\r`@\]
        Sally   sings    no-song --> "Sally sings no song", or "it's not
        a song Sally sings".

3)      my'e   `ys3l0' tww'l3re.
        not-so Sally   sings --> "It's not true that Sally sings."

Although logically speaking (3) is closest to the English "Sally is not
singing", (1) and (2) are actually the preferred forms, and (1) is
actually understood as (3) in most contexts. It's sorta like negation is
marked on nouns rather than on verbs.

> > Literally, _my'sal3_ is something along the lines of "none-of-Sally". So
> > you might translate the reply as "none of Sally is here". :-)
>
> But I AM here, Teoh!!  Now! Some of Sally is here...
In Ebisedian, that comes out as:
        my'e.  i're   `yb3'      uu'ri     isi'.
        not-so <emph> I(fem,cvy) here(loc) now(loc)
        "No, I *am* here right now!"

Ebisedian has no copula; the _i're_, which means "truly", "indeed",
indicates the emphasis. Taken literally, the Ebisedian means something
like "I am in the here and now".

> she won't be in two days, in which case she has to go nomail, because
> when she gets back from California she will have a thousand messages in
> her mailbox and she'll be in the pickle that Joao describes.
Is this for that long-awaited talk? :-)

> Harym li Saly tehhyn!  "The Sally is indeed here."
i're. ["ir`&]

"Yes indeed". (Another idiomatic way of agreeing.)

> ...ta vera li vaiSsali harym!  "...not that the no Sally is here.
Translated to Ebisedian, that's
        my'e   `ymy'sal3     uu'ri.
        not-so no-Sally(cvy) here(loc)
        "It's not the case that no-Sally is here."

This sentence is dangerously ambiguous, though. It could be misread as two
sentences: _my'e. `my'sal3 uu'ri._ which would be "No, Sally is not here".
A little pause between _my'e_ and _`ymy'sal3_ can make a world of
difference. :-) Ah, the peril of double negatives.

> ("the"  needed to indicate a definite Sally, as opposed to anyone named
> Sally.) Hmmm.
[snip]

Using articles with names sounds like a Classical Greek convention. :-)
(Does modern Greek still do that?)

Ebisedian, having no articles, would have to resort to other means of
clarification, eg., by naming a relative of the person, or by an
adjectival clause. E.g., _ni iko~la'ng d3 `ysali'_ - The Sally who is in
CONLANG (as opposed to other Sally's who are not here).


T

--
If you want to solve a problem, you need to address the root cause of the
problem, not just the symptoms. Otherwise it's like treating cancer with
Tylenol...