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Re: Minhyan & the goddess of conlangs

From:Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>
Date:Tuesday, August 31, 2004, 17:55
On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 12:51 , B. Garcia wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 19:15:05 +0100, Ray Brown <ray.brown@...> > wrote: > >> >> Who says we want a _Greek_ deity? As I've already pointed out, the Greeks >> simply divided the world into two camps: those who spoke a proper, >> civilized language (i.e. Greek), and those who didn't. The latter were >> all >> 'barbaroi'. A conlang, as far these deities were concerned, would be >> another barbarous tongue. > > Yeesh Ray, are you this much of a killjoy in real life?
Hang on! Hang on! This thread started with the assumption that the goddess would be Greek. I questioned why and gave a reason why maybe a Greek deity was not the most appropriate one. I then added the *positive* suggestion (and I quote): "If you need a goddess of conlanging, then IMO you need to look to a different pantheon." I was attempting to open up the discussion in order to make it more _interesting_. So when you then suggested a Greek deity (and IMO not a very exciting one) , I just want to know why you wanted stick with Greeks? And I repeated the reason why I thought a Greek deity is probably less appropriate than some others. Can't quite see what joy I'm supposed to be killing. What I was trying to kill was boredom. Gosh - we have the *whole planet* to choose from. Why do we have to get so hung up with ancient Greek deities? I find them almost as boring as I find euroclone conlangs. If this is supposed to be a fun thing, let's use a bit of imagination!
>> So if a pagan deity is wanted, I guess the Egyptian 'Thoth' is a >> suitable >> candidate; but the original request, as the subject line shows, was for >> a >> goddess. > > But who says we want an _Egyptian_ god/dess? (Throwing it back at > you).
I did not say that and AFAIK no one else has said it. I merely said if you want a patron deity, then as far as I can see, Thoth would be a suitable _candidate_.
> Who says we can't have a god and a goddess,
No one, as far as I know. All I pointed out was that the original question - as the subject line surely shows - was about a goddess.
> as Thoth was > associated with languages, etc. etc. but Seshet was the goddess of > actual writing and also was the keeper of the books.
OK - Seshet. But it would be nice to have candidates from other pantheons. Why ignore the ancient Celts & Germans? Are there no Hindu deities suitable? And what about the Americas? Are there no suitable deities there?
>> Surely the bird has to a parrot - the African Grey is probably the best. > > Why a parrot? Why not a Cockatiel? Or a cockatoo, ALL of those can be > made to speak,
So who's being a killjoy now? Yes, I do know other birds can be made to speak. I'm told, for example, that jackdaws can be made to speak. But parrots don't have to be _made_ to speak. The point was that parrots are for many people the 'archetypal' talking bird. It was merely a suggestion.
> why does it have to be an african grey even if we go > with parrots, hmmmmm?
If you read my words, I did not say it _had_ to be. Where I come from "is probably the best" would be taken as a _suggestion_. But as to why I suggested the African Grey - I have been told that the African Grey is among the most intelligent of parrots and one of the best talkers. I may have been misinformed.
> >> Why the Arbutus? The tree that actually 'speaks' is the Aspen, isn't it? >> (called in Welsh "tafod y merched" - girls' tongue [sic] - 'cause it is >> always chattering) > > Yes, but again why should we go with what the Welsh (or anyone else) > though would speak? I've seen aspen, their "speaking" is random noise > of leaves fluttering.
Um - I seem to recall that some conlangers have created their vocabularies with 'random flutterings'. I quoted Welsh because I am familiar with it & didn't have time to look up other references (tho I know they exist). In any case, those of us with imagination hear more than just random noise of leaves fluttering. You can hear that from any deciduous tree.
> Why not go with something that actually was made > useful and was used for writing?
Don't recall saying we shouldn't. I merely asked why you suggested an arbutus (pardon me for asking) and threw out aspen as a suggestion, giving a reason for my suggestion.
> Why not the Talipot Palm, Corypha > umbraculifera, which is what was used in South India as "paper" for > writing (and besides it's much more impressive than any Aspen... it > flowers once and dies, sending up the largest inflorescence in the > world).
..and of course beech bark was used among the Germanic peoples for writing; that's why 'book' and 'beech' are cognate words.
> Note: I'm only being a bit sarcastic here due to how intensely serious > Ray seems about this,
Sorry if making a point, having it apparently ignored, and then repeating the point is supposed to be "intensely serious". The simple fact is that if I was being serious (let's forget the intensely nonsense), I would be taking a very different line. But I shan't because I want it to be a bit of fun. [snip]
> everyone, myself included), have a bit of fun with this. Instead of > shooting people down by saying things like "who says we want a _Greek_ > god",
Yes, but the point was that I had already suggested looking at _other_ pantheons - precisely to make the exercise a bit more interesting and a bit more fun.
> suggest a few others and leave it up to the group to vote.
I did actually suggest Thoth (tho I admit - since {sigh} you seem to be in serious mode - one is not a few). I did intend to make one or two other suggestions, but real world considerations got in the way. Sorry about that. Why - even a con-goddess is a possibility. I therefore suggest 'Pitaku', goddess of conlanging. ================================================================ On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 02:15 , Paul Bennett wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:51:58 -0700, B. Garcia <madyaas@...> wrote:
[snip]
>> Why a parrot? Why not a Cockatiel? Or a cockatoo, ALL of those can be >> made to speak, why does it have to be an african grey even if we go >> with parrots, hmmmmm? > > Hmmm, indeed. *thinks for a second* Why not a Norwegian Blue Parrot (which > looks remarkably like a Blue Macaw)? It seems the perfect bird for the > various types of discussion we have from time to time.
{sigh} If only it were a _Swedish_ Blue Parrot it would be perfect ;) ========================================================= On Tuesday, August 31, 2004, at 03:33 , I. K. Peylough wrote: [snip]
> The *obvious* choice is a myna bird. Haven't y'all read _Babel 17_?
Yes, mynas are a good choice. But I haven't read _Babel 17_. Please enlighten. Ray =============================================== http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown ray.brown@freeuk.com =============================================== "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always interfere with language." J.G. Hamann, 1760

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