Re: GROUPLANG: optional features and case

Nick, then Pablo wrote :
(>> = Nick; > = Pablo)
> >As for the cases, I really don't like the proposal.  Is it set in stone
> >yet?  I'd like to propose another system.  This isn't all-or-nothing, of
> >course
>
> I don't see the current case proposal as "set in stone" exactly. But
> we've been discussing it for a looong while already.
I know. But I did not intend to stop conlanging process. I've always thought we
should go ahead with subclauses, pronouns, aspects, vocab, etc. WHILE
discussing cases : because they are implied in almost all other topics anyway
like pospositions, verbal affixes, word-deriving, etc. so addressing these
issues will fix case choice.

> I don't love it,
> but I think it's fine.
If you don't love it, it's not fine to you at least:-)
>
> >1.  Absolutive
> >2.  Ergative
> >    These might be in a mixed system, thus more accurately
> >    absolutive-nominative
>
> In the earliest attempts of this, I posted a mixed system...
>
This system names the different cases with reference to their respective role
inside a nominative/accusative system. I translate them into names referring to
the role of cases towards predicate so we can visualize them :
>
snip (absolute-ergative : everybody knows that)
> >3.  Genetive
= attributive
this case doesn't refer to the predicate but rather relates to a word in the phrase
- itself a noun argument of predicate or a predicate - like our own 'modifier
case'.
> >4.  Dative
= benefactive (ben) in 'I give him a present' = 'he gets a present from me'
> >5.  Instrumental
= agentive in 'I poke the eye with a stick' = 'the stick pokes the eye handled by me'
> >6.  Role (I don't know the term)
= agentive in 'he shelters children' = 'he's like a shelter towards children' (ben-children)
> >7.  Comitative (with; co-agent)
= comitative agentive
> >8.  Aversive (avoidance; he avoided *the fire*, he fears *fire*)
= topical
a very good case to say 'I protect the baby (ben-baby) from wolves'. Usually
paired with function as 'about' in 'to speak about something' or reversely as
'towards' in 'to speak towards someone'.
> >    Of course, this could be handled by other cases, perhaps local cases
> >9.  non-Comitative (I don't remember the term; without)
= abessive agentive ('without him as agent')
> >10. Associative (non-possessive genetive, e.g., *his* illness)
= attributive ('relative' or reversely 'absolute' depending on linguists)
a very good case to show logical relation in- or outside a process : 'the fire
smokes' = 'fire features smoke', 'he's my brother' = I feature him as brother'.
May also sometime replace patientive in 'I'm ill' = 'I feature illness'.
Usually further divided into different unergative cases like processive in 'the
fire smokes' = 'the fire produces smoke', stative in 'I lie down' = 'my lying
down', and relative in 'he's my brother'.
> >11. Partative
= partitive *substantiative
> >12. Vocative
= vocative
> >13. Comparative (he is older *than me*)
= comparative, usually replaced with locutions like 'compared to' or distal
genitive case 'from' in nom/acc system
> >14. Various local cases - I'm not particularly attached to any specific
> >    system, but the more cases, the better, as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> >Perhaps think about multiple case-marking?
>
> Multiple case-marking is OK to me.
to me too
> "The more cases the better" is not. Case is not very comfortable
> sometimes. The current proposal is just over the line dividing
> "interestingly complex" from "innecessarily intricate" (at least
> for me).
To me too. As I posted earlier I'd rather tag on the predicate whether it's verb
or noun-rooted, then cases would be understood from context.

> the I see you have a special feeling for cases :) (I saw your
> W. pages).
>
> As for your cases, I could live with some of them, especially
> associative and instrumental, to replace attributive and causative
> case in certain ambiguous situations. I prefer to leave local cases to
> postpositions.
so do I : 'I poke with a stick' = 'I poke using a stick'
>
>
> --Pablo Flores
>
Mathias



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