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Re: Láadan was Re: Computer Language Question

From:Sally Caves <scaves@...>
Date:Saturday, December 7, 2002, 0:43
I have about four hundred messages to go... let me read the other remarks
about LAadan, and see if there is anything left for me to add my two cents
to!  <G>

Sally Caves
Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim imo an   Gospel of Bastet
Even the gods have retractible claws.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Clark" <peter-clark@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:33 PM
Subject: Láadan was Re: Computer Language Question

> On Wednesday 27 November 2002 08:42 am, Amanda Babcock wrote: > > I would add to that "tlhIngan is a tie-in to a popular mass-media > > phenomenon" and, most annoyingly, "Láadan does not allow free access > > to the grammar and vocabulary". If you want something to be a success, > > *don't copyright it*. > > > > (I know, tlhIngan was commercial too, but we're back to that mass-media > > thing then.) > > Well, it seems as though Suzette Haden Elgin has pretty much
abandoned it.
> She originally intended it to provide both a realistic setting for her > novels, and as an experiment to test some '70s feminist theories that > languages are inherently unsuitable for women to express themselves in, > because of the patriarchal system (<quote source="Monty Python and the
> Grail">Come see the the patriarchy inherent in the system!</quote>). Elgin > explains the nitty-gritty on her site: > > Personally, I don't Láadan woman-centric enough. A couple of
months ago, I
> asked my wife what she thought of it and she agreed--the grammar, to be > certain, doesn't offer enough of an advantage to overcome the work
> in learning a second language. I still have not found a list of > "woman-centric" words, but after asking my wife how English vocabulary
> be improved, she initially said that emotion words could use more shading
> meaning--until she began to list some emotion words and realized that for
> most part, English has an overabundance of nuanced emotion words; gaps she > tends to fill in with Japanese loans. She suggested that the reason that
> doesn't use them is because they sound to lofty and erudite; if woman (and > men, for that matter) were to use them more, they probably would not seem
> "high." > I (and my wife, when she read Elgin's essay) found the underlying
> deeply flawed and rather offensive to women in general, especially the
> premise: "Those languages lacked vocabulary for many things that are > extremely important to women, making it cumbersome and inconvenient to
> about them." There seems to be no sociological constraint on the invention
> new words, besides the necessity that other listeners understand them. My > wife feels free to borrow from Japanese and Romanian whenever the English > word eludes her, and we manage to understand each other just fine. One
> think that if women in general found an unnamed concept important enough
> name, they would do so--assuming a feminist critique, it would not even be > necessary for the word to be accepted by the male half because it would
> carry currency with the female half. > That said, I would be interested in ideas for a "woman-centric"
> What do the doubly-blessed X chromosomers think? > :Peter > > > >