Re: IELang

Am 11/11 20:46  BP Jonsson yscrifef:

> Floppies I hope! About a year ago I had one HD and two Zip disks
Yes.

> -- actually the drive, but it broke the disks, and that's how I
> discovered it was amiss -- roll over in the space of two months.
> Some 500 MB of stuff just down the abyss... ;-(
What I describe as consigned to Devnull.  Then the next day the
Brithenig disk asked to be initialised.  Ouch!  Fortunately I knew that
disc was making noises and backed it up on my hard drive recently.  Time
to have a one-man back-up party I think.
>
> The root-list, I presume? The stuff was later published as a
> special supplement with some editions, maybe still is. It is a
> large paperback, so possibly public libraries have tucked it away
> somewhere. One can always ask.
>
Not in any in recent edition that I've seen.  Still looking though.  It
is the root-list that I copied, minus the examples.

(Oh no, Fremen the cat has wandered back in and looks set on another
game of ball and string!)

> ["a'll diawl": do I guess aright that this is the Brithenig
> version of "al'diavolo"? There must have been some sensu strictu
> Romans among the proto-Britannican speakers! :-)  Personally I
> find the Haitien reflex of DIABOLU, which sounds like "jab",
> unusually fitting, in a phonosymbolic sense.]
>
I calqued it from Welsh.  In Brithenig it's a mild, slightly borderline
expletive.  So it's interesting to know that's it's wider than that.  It
must be the one exclamation that English doesn't have.  I suprised
myself recently when I realised I have started using Br. "bon ddew!"
when exasperated or suprised.

> They might have adopted the script while being Achaemenian subjects.
>
And how they got there is anyone's guess!  The project originally
started off in a fantasy world I was designing.  Then the project moved
to the forestage.  I think that they are currently immigrating to a more
'tangible' environment where they exist in a state within the boundaries
of the kingdom of Prester John.  I read a book a couple of years ago on
the area of that King of King's imaginary kingdom and it's hypothetical
boundaries and took note of the map (roughly between the Caspian Sea and
the Taklimakan desert, centred around L. Ysyk-Kol).

> Couldn't it be derived from *wokv-dhgho:mos 'human speech'? It has
That would be *vokhdroomos.

> > Alaf  /a/
> > Bet  /b/
> > Bet with seyame  /v/
>
> In many versions of the Aramaic alphabet there are both closed
> (similar to our lower-case {g}) and open (similar to our {y})
> forms of Beth, a fact that may be exploited.  There are similar
> alternative Waws (similar to {9} and {?} respectively), but I'ld
> use them for different vowels.  Avestan has an {f} that is a Pe
> with an elongated stem (though the stem has become a bowl in its
> immediate ancestor, the Pehlevi alphabet.)  Alternatively it may
> be derived from a {pb} ligature.  Both would be nice ways to
> derive new letters.
>
This could be an idea, the font I am using on my old mac is SPEdessa
which I fear may not include these letters though.  Too classic I
suspect.  But it is an attractive alphabet and I should try writing it
more to practise and learn it better.

> > Gamal  /g/
> > Dalat  /d/
> > He  /a/ (used as the feminine ending)
>
> Would there be any special reason to keep this distinct from
> Aleph?  My natural inclination would be Aleph /a/, He /e/, Ayin
> /o/, for obvious reasons.  Or was *h2 preserved in early
> Vokhomos? ;)
>
I think I found the feature of scribes using it to mark the
feminine in itself novel.

> > Kaf  /k/  (used if the next letter in the stem is Yud)
>
> Why this distinction?  Seing that /dZ/--/tS/ are paired but /ts/
> appears to have no */dz/ counterpart I wonder if there are no /z/
> and /dz/?  If there are I would have Kaph = /tS/, Qoph = /k/,
> Sade = /tS/, Zayin = /z/ and Sade+Zayin = /dZ/.
>
I realise I made a couple of mistakes here.  Qoph is the more common
letter for /k/, as I decided that due to sound changes /k/ and /g/
before a mid-high front vowel became affricates, as from Indo-Iranic.
So after I sent the above I realised it should have read something along
the lines of *'(used if the next letter in the stem is not Waw)'.  There
is no /z/ in Vokhomos (gh > z > r).  I'm not sure as I'm writing if I
have a {VssV}-{VsV} contrast which might be the only reason I would need
Zayin for.  /ts/ comes from a liking for Tocharian /ti/ -> /tsi/,
transliterated as {zi}, still in the process of debating whether to keep
that feature, it snagged on {t + -si}, which I felt made it redundant.
I may have simplified that cluster now though, due to what I've read
since then.

> I.e. Ayin, obviously. Cool mapping, but it could also be used to
> form ligatures with other letters to eke out the vowel-inventory,
> using simple doubling or a diacritic for length. I might imagine:
> (Key: {A}leph, h{E}, {W}aw, {Y}od, {O}=Ayin, {%} front rounded v.)
>
> A = /a/ AA = /a:/
> E = /e/ EE = /e:/
> OY = /i/        OYY = /i:/
> AO = /o/        AOO = /o:/
> OW = /u/        OWW = /o:/
> OE = /%/        OOE = /%:/
> (O) = /@/
>
I may have to steal these!  I'll look at them for a while and then
decide.

> Hope I've been of some help.  I should point out that I'm thinking
> in terms of an Imperial Aramaic hand, with some peeks at later
> forms.  Those Ayin ligatures would IMHO look real funky in such a
> hand.
>
Very helpful, the Vokhdromenes thank you!

- andrew.
--
Andrew Smith, Intheologus                       hobbit@earthlight.co.nz

            "Death is an evil; the gods have so judged it;
                  had it been good, they would die."
                                        - Sappho of Lesbos.